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Re: General Motors #905938
03/24/05 05:24 PM
03/24/05 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 132
midwest
L
librarymichael Offline
Full Member
librarymichael  Offline
Full Member
L

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 132
midwest
Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
GM dropped Olds for about 15 seconds, then reconsidered. There are only three models of Olds now, though: Alero (car), Silhouette (van) and Bravada (SUV). GM has publicly said it would consider dropping Pontiac or Buick if necessary, yes.
Not to be contrary, but didn't Olds officially stop building cars about a year ago? At least here in Indy the brand is gone. BTW, I am a GM owner and quite happy with my Pontiac.

Piano & Music Accessories
Re: General Motors #905939
03/24/05 05:30 PM
03/24/05 05:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,416
Washington D.C. Metro
Cindysphinx Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Cindysphinx  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,416
Washington D.C. Metro
Oh, man.

You said "Astro."

I've driven Astros. As rentals.

Um . . .

:tries to think of something polite to say:

I'm glad yours is going strong!

Re: General Motors #905940
03/24/05 05:31 PM
03/24/05 05:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
New Jersey
S
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Stevester  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
New Jersey
It is my understanding much of GM's problem lies in the fact that most of their current lineup is dated.

As gryphon mentions GM is selling off part of GMAC in order to attempt to save their credit rating. This is considered a desperate attempt by some traders. I also understand the entire corporate bond market is shaken by GM's current financial position. The view is that if GM's paper is in doubt then a lot of other paper is as well. This is not a good situation.


"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
Re: General Motors #905941
03/24/05 06:29 PM
03/24/05 06:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
Quote
Originally posted by librarymichael:
Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
[b] GM dropped Olds for about 15 seconds, then reconsidered.
Not to be contrary, but didn't Olds officially stop building cars about a year ago? [/b]
I think so, but the brand still exists. I think. (I think there is still 2004 inventory, not sure). But my main point was that years ago GM decided to drop Olds altogether, then reconsidered and kept a couple of models. But I don't think there are any 2005 Olds. I really should keep up on my own company better. laugh

Kenny, GM does make hybrids. Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra. Unless they've temporarily pulled them. They make them in Shreveport, LA I believe. They're only available in some states, though.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/hybrid/
http://www.gmc.com/sierra/hybrid_popup.jsp


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: General Motors #905942
03/24/05 06:35 PM
03/24/05 06:35 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Thanks Gry.
With a big company like GM, with 300,000 employees worldwide nobody could keep up with everything.

Re: General Motors #905943
03/24/05 06:39 PM
03/24/05 06:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
Don't forget, GM was the first company to build an all-electric car, 10 years ago. Here is one (and a younger gryphon).

[Linked Image]


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: General Motors #905944
03/24/05 07:00 PM
03/24/05 07:00 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Was it yours?

Re: General Motors #905945
03/24/05 07:01 PM
03/24/05 07:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
Nah, I just play with the toys. laugh


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: General Motors #905946
03/24/05 07:24 PM
03/24/05 07:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,091
Richmond, VA
plays88skeys Offline
3000 Post Club Member
plays88skeys  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,091
Richmond, VA
Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Don't forget, GM was the first company to build an all-electric car, 10 years ago. Here is one (and a younger gryphon).

[Linked Image]
You're *still* a cutie! I'll bet you are Mrs. Gryphon's favorite teddy bear.


There are no shortcuts to any place worth going. - Beverly Sills
Re: General Motors #905947
03/24/05 07:35 PM
03/24/05 07:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 166
The Kingdom of Words
Roi Offline
Full Member
Roi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 166
The Kingdom of Words
kenny, it isn't very polite to insinuate that gryphon has put on hundreds of pounds since that picture. I agree, health concerns with obesity should not be ignored though.


"Il tombe enfin!...et se releve roi" - Victor Hugo
Re: General Motors #905948
03/24/05 07:50 PM
03/24/05 07:50 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Roi
Go back to what you do best.
Fart, why don't ya.

Re: General Motors #905949
03/24/05 07:53 PM
03/24/05 07:53 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Quote
Originally posted by plays88skeys:
Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
[b] Don't forget, GM was the first company to build an all-electric car, 10 years ago. Here is one (and a younger gryphon).

[Linked Image]
You're *still* a cutie! I'll bet you are Mrs. Gryphon's favorite teddy bear. [/b]
Favorite?
Are you implying she has several? eek

Re: General Motors #905950
03/25/05 04:49 AM
03/25/05 04:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
About 600. :rolleyes:


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: General Motors #905951
03/25/05 06:37 AM
03/25/05 06:37 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 332
Illinois/Thailand/Korea
taiwan_girl Offline
Full Member
taiwan_girl  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 332
Illinois/Thailand/Korea
Quote
Apparently, providing medical insurance to former GM employees costs about $1,500 per vehicle sold.
I have hear that this is one of the biggest issues that the US car company's have to worry about. Because GM has been around so long, of course they are going to have many more retirees and higher benefit costs. A car company like Toyota America has only a few old retired people and do not have to worry about these costs, at least yet.

Re: General Motors #905952
03/25/05 06:51 AM
03/25/05 06:51 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
K
kenny Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
So in 50 years some new company will sprout up with a competitive advantage?

There must be a way for GM to secretly go belly up and then "a new company" sprout from the ashes.
Of course that company will have a 401k but no pension, or a pathetic one.

Sad really.
The idea of having a pension and health insurance in your later years seems like a good thing for society, but a bad thing for businesses.

Re: General Motors #905953
03/25/05 06:55 AM
03/25/05 06:55 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,291
Yorba Linda, CA
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Steve Miller  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,291
Yorba Linda, CA
Quote
Originally posted by kenny:
There must be a way for GM to secretly go belly up and then "a new company" sprout from the ashes.
They tried that - sort of - with Saturn.

It might have worked, but the cars weren't state of the art - not big sellers.


Defender of the Landfill Piano
Re: General Motors #905954
03/25/05 07:51 AM
03/25/05 07:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
I don't know if I'd exactly characterize it as that, Steve, but you are somewhat on the right track. The big thing with Saturn was a different way of UAW-GM relationship. Their contract was a few pages as contrasted with the huge UAW national and supplemental local contracts which run into the hundreds of pages. There was a new philosophy in employee "empowerment." It was hoped to be a model for future contracts within GM and across other car companies. But the wages, insurance, and pension never strayed from the high standards set before. Just everything else.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: General Motors #905955
03/25/05 08:03 AM
03/25/05 08:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,171
Wisconsin
markjpcs Offline
3000 Post Club Member
markjpcs  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,171
Wisconsin
Quote
Originally posted by kenny:

The idea of having a pension and health insurance in your later years seems like a good thing for society, but a bad thing for businesses.
Is this a plug for socialist security Kenny?

Why isn't what's good (or bad) for the goose also good (or bad) for the gander.

All you do is end up making slaves out of the younger generation. This has, to a certain extent already happened. It needs to be stopped.

Save for your own retirement.

The come the eat they leave!
The come the eat they leave!
The come the eat they leave!

Re: General Motors #905956
03/25/05 09:33 AM
03/25/05 09:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 310
Pacific Northwest
I
IgnorantHusband Offline
Full Member
IgnorantHusband  Offline
Full Member
I

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 310
Pacific Northwest
All,

A few points of reference and opinions.

The CEO of GM makes is R. Wagon and he made 8.51M this past year. They have 324,000 employees. 193B revenue with a profit margin of 1.09% this past year. Toyota for comparison was 176B with a whopping 6% profit margin and manage to do it with 264,000 people. Clearly Toyota is a company riding success and has a strategy for growth. GM has one of trying to survive to the next round of produts. I hope they have a larger strategy.

GM won't go away over night. If they do go away it will be a slow, and thus won't have a large impact on the US economy as a whole. A GM division can design and make cars with the best of them. Saturn a decade ago, and Cadillac today. The problem is a larger Corporation / culture problem that would take decades to fix from an insider, but probably more quickly from the outside. Will it get fixed? We can watch the next 20 years to find out.

There are cases like IBM or XEROX where one did something radically and recovered and the other didn't. The XEROX go away, NO, but neither is it the leader.

No company has as much resource and money to fix things ( in the car space ) then GM. The question is will their current leadership be able to do it.

Do they make good cars? The perception that American designed or built cars are hugely inferior is a misconception. The gap has been closed. There is a difference, but much smaller then 10 years ago. Many of the foreign models designed for the US market are now designed and manufactured in the US by US employees. So again the problem is management/culture. A counter example is SONY, long viewed as a leader on Consumer Electronics. Due to missmanagement, poor decisions, and culture issues they have fallen on hard times. The are trying something radical there.. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out...

Gotta go now crabbing :p

Re: General Motors #905957
03/25/05 10:22 PM
03/25/05 10:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 915
Boston
C
Chris W1 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chris W1  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 915
Boston
FWIW, GM's debt is priced just on top of junk, anyway. Below investment grade bonds (High Yield, aka Junk) are doing well since the economy started doing better, so GM at 8-10% is kind of already there. What I think is surprising is a company like Walmart paying just a little more than half a percent over what the government does.

GM is in huge trouble if they can't reverse the market share slide. The pension costs are largely fixed at this point, so everyones going to be watching for insolvency if they don't turn revenue around. That's the simple math consensus.


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