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#903243 - 02/17/05 04:52 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Everything happening today is because the people of the US got fed up with the liberal agenda that many Americans found morally offensive.
Don't exagerrate. We all know that the country is about evenly divided.


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#903244 - 02/17/05 04:56 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Bernard:
Quote
Everything happening today is because the people of the US got fed up with the liberal agenda that many Americans found morally offensive.
Don't exagerrate. We all know that the country is about evenly divided.
It is not an exaggeration to suggest that we are now witnessing a backlash from the former liberal hegemony.

10 years ago we wouldn't have been able to have this conversation. Now Hillary and other Dems are trying to reframe the discussion to include all those who they smugly thought could be left out.


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903245 - 02/17/05 05:13 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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With all due respect to those who would like to divide this into a liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, religious vs. non-religious issue, that's not the point.

As a country, or a society we can't go back to the good old "Ozzie and Harriet" days. We aren't going to revisit history and wish it could be different, or hidden, as it was in those good old days.

This is today. Deal with the reality that 60% of your children are exposed to sexually communicable (possibly lethal) diseases by the age of 18.

What is the best way to deal with it?

#903246 - 02/17/05 05:21 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by bcarey:
With all due respect to those who would like to divide this into a liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, religious vs. non-religious issue, that's not the point.

(snip)
What is the best way to deal with it?
Good question. A first step is to not start the discussion with titles such as "Bush's Sex Scandal".

A second step would be to not make abstinence only as a "religious" position but rather one that best respects the intrinsic human dignity of the children.


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903247 - 02/17/05 05:24 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by bcarey:
Thought that might get you Repub's attention.

If it didn't, this forum has forever gone off into endless boredom kingdom. I'm tired of talking about chicken soup and children. Let's get to the real nitty gritty.

I thought you wanted nitty gritty.... I'm sorry smile


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#903248 - 02/17/05 05:39 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by bcarey:
With all due respect to those who would like to divide this into a liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, religious vs. non-religious issue, that's not the point...

Did you really expect anything less, titling the thread "Bush's Sex scandal". I think you got exactly what you were looking for.

#903249 - 02/17/05 06:31 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Good question. A first step is to not start the discussion with titles such as "Bush's Sex Scandal".

A second step would be to not make abstinence only as a "religious" position but rather one that best respects the intrinsic human dignity of the children.
I would agree with the first step.

As to the second, (for all of you abstinence only folks) what is argument against the abstinence plus programs? Is the fear that more kids will have sex if they know how to prevent pregnancy?

I assume these abstinence plus programs are teaching abstinence, but also teaching about pregnancy and STD prevention? Isn't an important part of education giving our kids access to information that will help to prepare them for the future? Realizing that they may not need these "tools" yet, but that they need to at least have the knowledge to make the correct choice for themselves when they are adults? Just curious.

smile Jodi

#903250 - 02/17/05 06:49 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
RZ:

You know d*mn well that for years the liberals were foisting contraception on kids in schools to the objections of parents. Abstinence was a non starter for the policy wonks. Everything happening today is because the people of the US got fed up with the liberal agenda that many Americans found morally offensive.
No, I don't damn well know that.

Could you tell me what the liberal agenda is? Can you tell me when all of the liberals got together and adopted this agenda?

Abstinence was a non-starter in sex education curricula for so long because the schools were expected to teach basic facts, not morality or behavior. They were to teach the biology and anatomy of sex, not whether it was good or bad to engage in it.

The teaching of abstinence steps outside of this strict limit we had on sex education for several decades and speaks to "acceptable" behavior and a given morality about sex; a morality not necessarily shared by all and an area which rightfully is the province of the home and the parents not the schools.

Do you really believe that in a society as sexualized as this one, a sexualization that has come primarily from corporate America, that it is the discussion about condoms and the pill for a couple of weeks in the classroom that has teenagers who are sexually obsessed by nature deciding it's OK to have premarital sex?

American parents have been betrayed in teaching their own sexual mores to the children far more by corporate America than they have been by sex education in the schools.

#903251 - 02/17/05 06:59 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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It seems to me that the Separation clause could appropriately be applied to discussions of contraception and birth control in the classroom.

Quote
Originally posted by RZ:
Abstinence was a non-starter in sex education curricula for so long because the schools were expected to teach basic facts, not morality or behavior. They were to teach the biology and anatomy of sex, not whether it was good or bad to engage in it.


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#903252 - 02/17/05 07:16 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Somehow RZ you miss point that "big business" and "values free education" (to which I was exposed in the 1970s) are two sides of the same agenda: the educational agenda of the NEA is servile to the technocrat's wishes to create a mass of emotional-responsive worker-drones who produce and consume according to their basest (and not coincidently the most profitable) inclinations.

In fact, it was only after Dewey that we see shifts where "schools were expected to teach basic facts, not morality or behavior".

As far as where and when, you can start with the Humanist Manifesto (1933) and the major writings of its principal framers and signatories.

Sorry to assume that you "d*mn well" knew this... it was most uncivil and presumptuous of me.


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903253 - 02/17/05 07:47 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Somehow RZ you miss point that "big business" and "values free education" (to which I was exposed in the 1970s) are two sides of the same agenda: the educational agenda of the NEA is servile to the technocrat's wishes to create a mass of emotional-responsive worker-drones who produce and consume according to their basest (and not coincidently the most profitable) inclinations.
I have seen your views on education in other places and I agree with you and have felt the same for a long time. We have created a vocational education system in order to feed our capitalistic, materialistic economic needs, not a knowledge education system. You argue for a return to a liberal arts education and so would I. The problems you have identified are, to me, what are exactly wrong with education in this country.

I think where you and I will differ is that those you purport to agree with who are arguing most loudly against sex education that provides the students with all of the information that is available (as is appropriate to their age) are the same ones who will argue against a true liberal arts education.

Ask those who argue most vociferously about abstinence in sex education whether they want their children taught Aristotelian ethics as a means of testing their own ethical base. Ask them if they want their children to be taught scholastic reasoning as a means of judging the validity of America's world view and societal philosophies. Ask them if they are willing to expose their children to an education which objectively analyzes and provides an understanding of the development of Western thought from Ancient Greece through the Enlightenment and into the 21st century. Ask them if they are willing to have their children come to a true analytical understanding of comparative economic theories including Marxism along with capitalism, recognizing there is good and bad in all economic systems. Ask them if they encourage their children in true scriptural exegesis or want to deny scriptural interpretations which are not their own.

You know as well as I do what those who are most aggressive in their demands about abstinence and against the inclusion of birth control education would say if you asked them the above.

You and I are far more alike in our view of a proper education than you may think, Ivory. But don't you think you are betraying your own educational values when you adhere to an educational theory that discourages giving the student valid and true information rather than encourages them to gain as much information as possible and then to be given the intellectual tools as to how to handle that information?

#903254 - 02/17/05 07:55 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr. E:
Quote
Originally posted by bcarey:
[b] With all due respect to those who would like to divide this into a liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, religious vs. non-religious issue, that's not the point...

Did you really expect anything less, titling the thread "Bush's Sex scandal". I think you got exactly what you were looking for. [/b]
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#903255 - 02/17/05 08:12 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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RZ:

FWIW, I am not in the abstinence only camp -- but I also know it is not simply a "religious" issue and that many make the case on purely personalistic grounds. Age appropriate, to be sure, but this is highly dubious grounds to be put in the hands of the NEA or the government in general.

I could see a scenario where "sex ed" included all the very problematic downsides to artificial contraception methods -- as well as showing the effects of post-abortion trauma syndrome to young women and the statistics (not at my finger tips right now) that indicate serious impairments to future earnings for those who conceive while in their teenage years.

These have not been part of the mix -- and in fact many abortion advocacy groups such as Planned Parenthood that have led the vanguard for sex ed have blamed conventional "religious morality" for PATS (eg, "Christians making women feel guilty).

As far as the more "vociferous" -- I assume you intend Christian fundamentalists -- these are not folks I am in much conversation with. The litmus test you suggest would (in my estimation)be widely accepted and positively affirmed by most of the people I know who are against publicly funded sex ed courses that showed "techniques" in a value free and non critical environment.

Perhaps this is common ground for future discussion?


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903256 - 02/17/05 08:15 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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RZ - "a sexualization that has come primarily from corporate America"

Nope. Sexualization comes from our natural and pleasurable desire for sexual experience and variety. It's part of the human condition. Capitalism is the best social system ever evolved to meet human desires in a complex, populous society. Teens *will* have sex. They have for tens of thousands of years, and no silly, fear-mongering school program will change that. They need to be educated how to do so safely, either in school or by the parents, or both.

I support both sex and big business. Wonder where that puts me? smile

#903257 - 02/17/05 08:19 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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ivory: "indicate serious impairments to future earnings for those who conceive while in their teenage years."

Yes, this is why abortion must be legal, and for those under 18, free as well.

"post-abortion trauma syndrome to young women"

No such thing. No reason to teach lies to young people. Some people may feel sad, its their right, but no reason to medicalize it into a "trauma syndrome".

#903258 - 02/17/05 08:27 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Jeffrey said: "
Quote
this is why abortion must be legal, and for those under 18, free as well.
"
Yikes, the answer is not the killing of unborn babies!

Adoption is a wonderful alternative.

#903259 - 02/17/05 08:28 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jeffrey:

"post-abortion trauma syndrome to young women"

No such thing. No reason to teach lies to young people. Some people may feel sad, its their right, but no reason to medicalize it into a "trauma syndrome".
Sure, Jeffrey, and some people call the Holocaust a lie. Do the research on it.


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903260 - 02/17/05 08:29 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
I support both sex and big business. Wonder where that puts me? smile
Probably a major investor in [EDIT: adult movies]?


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903261 - 02/17/05 08:33 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Thanks IT.


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#903262 - 02/17/05 08:33 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jeffrey:

Yes, this is why abortion must be legal, and for those under 18, free as well.

free for whom? There is a cost we must bear. I don't want money collected from me to kill little ones. A society chooses how to spends its money.

I'd prefer a society with the wisdom necessary to prevent pregnancy than the hindsight to kill it's mistakes and the cruel coldness to keep it's lowest echelons in check.


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#903263 - 02/17/05 08:43 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Quote
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
[b] I support both sex and big business. Wonder where that puts me? smile
Probably a major investor in [EDIT: adult movies]? [/b]
Nah, I thought the original KP comment was a rapier flash.

Not necessarily funny, but that's a mighty slipperly slope one ventures on when dealing with sexuality and minors.

Witness the widely varying age of consent, as one travels around the world. What, in one country may be viewed as within bounds, will get you 20 years at hard labor, in another.


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#903264 - 02/17/05 08:44 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Come on, MattG -- it was a cheap shot but funny! smile


Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"
#903265 - 02/17/05 08:49 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
Nah, I thought the original ... comment was a rapier flash.
There are times when a rapier, wielded incorrectly, causes more damage than intended.


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
#903266 - 02/17/05 08:50 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
As a country, or a society we can't go back to the good old "Ozzie and Harriet" days. We aren't going to revisit history and wish it could be different, or hidden, as it was in those good old days.

That is a very ill-informed view, taken in historical context.

Societies do fluctuate in morality, even in countries that are majority one religion, or another.

Witness the Victorian Age.

Or even the difference in America, between the 1920s, and the 1930s.

The pendulum is always swinging. That does not mean it only swings in one direction.


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#903267 - 02/17/05 08:52 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Come on, MattG -- it was a cheap shot but funny! smile
Cheap shots work best when spoken in the presence of the "victim." I use cheap shots all the time. But, when typed on an internet forum, they tend to have an effect diametrically opposite the one desired. People will zoom in on the offensive part and ignore the well-hidden humor.


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
#903268 - 02/17/05 08:53 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by Matt G.:
Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
[b] Nah, I thought the original ... comment was a rapier flash.
There are times when a rapier, wielded incorrectly, causes more damage than intended. [/b]
Ya gotta admit, though, Jeff's comment is/was a hanging curve ball.....


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#903269 - 02/17/05 09:19 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
Originally posted by apple*:
Quote
Originally posted by Jeffrey:

Yes, this is why abortion must be legal, and for those under 18, free as well.
free for whom? There is a cost we must bear. I don't want money collected from me to kill little ones. A society chooses how to spends its money.

I'd prefer a society with the wisdom necessary to prevent pregnancy than the hindsight to kill it's mistakes and the cruel coldness to keep it's lowest echelons in check.
OK then, how about tieing every young woman's tube since she gets her first period, and giving every young man vasectomy to match. Reverse the surgeries after they hit 18. I imagine that to be infintely more effective than teaching abstinence, and a much cheaper cost for the society to bear than to fund abortion procedures or adoption programs. No fetus aborted, no babies abandoned by teenage biological mothers, no funny "trauma syndrome."

Tell me what's wrong with the above suggestion.

#903270 - 02/17/05 09:20 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Ivory: "Probably a major investor in [EDIT: adult movies]?"

I missed the unedited comment. You can restore it. I got a thick skin, and I know I am right. bcarey said she was getting tired of the new CR where we all say we love babies and our sweethearts and such. I am for capitalism and for sex. I think Larry Flynt is a great guy. Wasn't there a really good movie about him a few years back? Do your worst.


At any rate, teens *will* have sex, as they have since the species homo sapiens evolved 50-odd thousand years ago. Humans are the only mammal where the female is receptive to sex year round, not only when in estrus or "heat". There is a reason for this. Humans like sexual activity and variety, from puberty on. The only issue is whether teens will have sex with proper education as to their options, or whether they will have sex without such education and information.

#903271 - 02/17/05 09:25 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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apple: "free for whom? There is a cost we must bear."

Yes, and as a taxpayer I don't like paying it. But the cost is much less than years of welfare and (as even ivory noticed) lower earning (i.e. lower future taxes as well). As for whether people who are anti-abortion should have their tax dollars go for abortion - my tax dollars go for all kinds of things I oppose, but if the taxes are levied as a matter of law in a basically free and democratic society, I just accept it and move on.

Again, teens *will* have sex. Get over it. That basic biological fact won't go away. The question is what information and knowledge they will bring to the table when they have sex.

#903272 - 02/17/05 09:31 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal  
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Quote
At any rate, teens *will* have sex, as they have since the species homo sapiens evolved 50-odd thousand years ago. Humans are the only mammal where the female is receptive to sex year round, not only when in estrus or "heat". There is a reason for this. Humans like sexual activity and variety, from puberty on. The only issue is whether teens will have sex with proper education as to their options, or whether they will have sex without such education and information.
Go take another biology class, cuz you slept through part of the last one.

Many animals copulate without being in heat. All year round.

Primates, primarily, but other species, also.

Watch a bull in any herd of cows...


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