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DARNIT Frank.... #899496
04/18/05 07:59 PM
04/18/05 07:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
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Jack Frost  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Strapping on my parachute and taking the plunge (to borrow a great phrase)....

Frank,

With all due respect....

We have met. A nicer guy I could not imagine. Too nice is a moniker I have heard directed at me. And you? Please do not take this personally....

It's not fair. You can't shut us down like this.

Of course you are right. You HAVE the LEGAL right to do whatever you want. You own the real estate and we don't even have a lease.

But I think there are moral issues here too and I am not so quick to agree that you ought to be able to do what you wish on that account.

You have created and "sold" a community. Much in the same way a real estate developer creates a subdivision or condominium. Now that many people have "bought in" and the place is full, is it ok for you to throw everyone out?

The Coffee Room has meant a whole lot to lots of people. Perhaps more than you can imagine. Have you had the time to read today's posts? check out Katie's in particular.

Humor, argument, education, polite and not so polite discourse, sharing of passions and hates, games and charades, heartfelt sharing of life's travails and jokes that come right up to the line and dare to cross, the gardening tips and recipies..... It has also maybe helped save a life or two.

I don't know if you have had the time to see the various threads started today....the goodbyes...the memories....the affection and regrets...the tears...and of course...the blame.

For those still engaged, it is a community in many ways more alive and more vital than the subdivision where I live. It is an imperfect community in many respects but one that has a solid foundation. So many of us know and enjoy and need each other. Some of us are up front with who we really are. Others less so but just as engaging and vital.

When you hit the hard times financially, we rallied and supported the subscriptions. I was at the fore on that movement and I expect you raised thousands of dollars from us to support the site, and the Coffee Room was the motivator in the fundraising. We have all invested many hours of time making the community what it is.

Is it right for you just to pull the plug? Imagine someone who is traveling...say Elena...comes back....logs in....and nothing is there. Nothing at all. All those relationships...gone. All those friends...gone. No explanation.

I disagree that you merely have a property interest that you can buy and sell and kill at whim.

I understand the "between a rock and a hard place" in which you find yourself. On the one hand, you have Larry the long time poster, the raconteur, the generous giver of advice and tireless advocate for a commercial-free station, the recipient of lots of support from others here....On the other hand, you have Larry, the nasty poster who can turn a civil debate into a name calling, mud slinging, nasty exchange of innapropriate remarks.

What do you do?

Larry's supporters are blind to his nastiness...or they choose not to temper him in public.

Lots of compaints come in from the other side...."Why don't you do something about this..."

Gryphon, sometimes Jolly, past TomK (all popular with long term posters) get nasty too....more sensitive "brain dead liberals" complain...get nasty back. Inexplicably, the seemingly moral right is oblivious to the nastiness.

Dwain, of all people here, there are few that deservedly garner more respect than you. You have read the nasty things Larry posts, that Gryphon posts, that Jolly posts....have you EVER called them on it? We do...and it is ignored of course. Haven't you noticed?

See...i don't mean to put all the blame on you guys. I like you. You are very much part of what makes this a very interesting place to me. I don't want to see any of you go. I want you to stick around. If it were MY coffee room there would be no moderators and an ooccasional warning after which the worst offenders would be bygones---but it would take a LOT to get booted. For the most part, I like the coffee Room just as it is.

But you wingers all are very much at the core of Frank's dilemna. He gets complaints from lots of newer members about your name calling and he knows your history. What can he do?

Shutting this down is a cop out.

With all due respect Frank, I have not a clue what you have been through. I am not privy to the many many emails you get about this, and I do not have the history here of many. I understand that Larry is a very complicated issue for you.

But for you to take months to decide to impliment moderators, and then give up on them a week later when you yourself admit they have had little guidance and support...

It's just not fair....

I know you "own" the place and have a lot invested here, and I don't suggest you should ever be out a dime to keep this place solvent. We have invested a lot too. We have given you thousnads of dollars to stay afloat and contibuted thousands of posts to keep this place interesting.

Read some of the threads started today to get some sense of the community you are threatening to destroy.

If it is a matter of more money, say so, and I will again lead the fundraising....

But I think the very best thing you can do for our survival is to be more honest about who or what is creating the problems for you. We will be the judge ultimately, but in your silence there is nothing to judge and much to ponder.

I have stuck my neck out and suggested that Larry, Jolly and Gryphon are at the core of the problem, because they are at once valued posters and also have a nasty streak. Gryphon's post to Cindy this moring is inexcusable and kudos to Apple for taking it out. For balance, let's add Quirt, whose presence I value immensely but who has resorted to incessant name calling of late. And in fact, I value the presence of all named, but it seems to me you are closing the joint because of a few people.

Frank, tell us what is REALLY going on here and we will solve the problem. Name the names. STATE THE ISSUES. We will try to be grown up about it.

In the meantime, I repeat my statement that it is not fair that you close the Coffee Room. We all rose to the occaision to send you a lot of money. You owe us more than a vague explanation.

I think it is your responsibility to spend it wisely to keep our community alive. I understand the solution to this dilemna has thus far been elusive. You don't need to find the answers so much as you need to be up front about the problems.

We will solve them.

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Piano & Music Accessories
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899497
04/18/05 08:07 PM
04/18/05 08:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 742
bachophile Offline
500 Post Club Member
bachophile  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 742
im with u...


"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899498
04/18/05 08:07 PM
04/18/05 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Well said, Jack. However, my suspicion is that the issue is not so much nastiness as non-family friendly. I believe Frank has said as much. there is a lot of pressure out there to limit young'un's exposure to some of the more adult things that transpire on internet forums (sorry, I don't wear a toga to work every day). I'm talking legal pressure.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899499
04/18/05 08:11 PM
04/18/05 08:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Jack Frost  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
If Family Friendly is the problem, we can have a password or something....i think there is a lot more behind the scenes complaints and other stuff than you or I could imagine.

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899500
04/18/05 08:17 PM
04/18/05 08:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,948
New York
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Jeffrey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,948
New York
It is interesting that this all happened after a certain posters "lesbian" post and the ensuing flap.

Bach - I hope to still see you in the AB forum. I read it, just don't post there as much. I got some good book ideas from you!!

Jack - Good post. Don't agree with every word, but a very good post. I'm not sure why Frank would change his mind, though. It seems clear that some people choose not to curb their behavior, and it would be a full time job for moderators to babysit said individuals.

Jbryan - Do you think it is just the pictures, and not the general tone towards certain people?

Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899501
04/18/05 08:18 PM
04/18/05 08:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Tom--K Offline
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Tom--K  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Quote
Originally posted by JBryan:
Well said, Jack. However, my suspicion is that the issue is not so much nastiness as non-family friendly. I believe Frank has said as much. there is a lot of pressure out there to limit young'un's exposure to some of the more adult things that transpire on internet forums (sorry, I don't wear a toga to work every day). I'm talking legal pressure.
Jack a lot of it comes to the post I made about my 11 year old. It was a direct answer to Frank's position about the place being family friendly. The CR stops the Piano Forum from being that kind of place.

Look here Fender Forum if you want to get an idea ( I guess,) of the direction Frank wants to go in. (Moe's Tavern.)

There's a lot to be said about having my 11 year old read the piano threads.

Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899502
04/18/05 08:22 PM
04/18/05 08:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 742
bachophile Offline
500 Post Club Member
bachophile  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 742
jeff, finished beevor's berlin,

starting "the first crusade, a new history", by thomas asbridge.


"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899503
04/18/05 08:25 PM
04/18/05 08:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
CSG Offline
Full Member
CSG  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
FWIW, I hope Frank is soliciting more advice than mine! The difference between my site and PW is we've had the rules in place since day one and it's always worked pretty well for us. It's going to be harder for Frank to change the culture of PW at this point without ticking off a few people. However, I believe *most* people prefer family friendly forums where the flames, name-calling, unresolvable hot-button issues, etc. are not allowed.

I have a five year old and a seven year old. I'm tired of the filth and vitriol one finds all over the internet and, unfortunately, for now, here. I'm 100% in Frank's corner and will support him in his efforts. I hope most of you will do the same.


Pramberger JP-185 Bubinga
Kawai CP155
Yamaha P-120
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899504
04/18/05 08:29 PM
04/18/05 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Jack Frost  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Tom, my "Fender" is a Japanese knock-off with a Spanish name....Fernandez.

A forum for 12 year olds does not interest me. If that is where Frank wants to go, I suggest a partnership with www.neopets.com.

If you are right, then indeed, we are done.

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899505
04/18/05 08:31 PM
04/18/05 08:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Jack Frost  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Quote
Originally posted by CSG:
I'm 100% in Frank's corner and will support him in his efforts. I hope most of you will do the same.
Sure. But you don't have to kill the Coffee Room. The positives there outweight the negatives 10 to 1. Kill the beast cause we dislike the hairdo?

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899506
04/18/05 08:33 PM
04/18/05 08:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Tom--K  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Quote
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
Tom, my "Fender" is a Japanese knock-off with a Spanish name....Fernandez.
We used to call them "BradleeCastors" after the old Bradlee Store chain in New England.

You but 'um for $25 and spend two years rewiring them to sound like anything you want. smile

Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899507
04/18/05 08:35 PM
04/18/05 08:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
CSG Offline
Full Member
CSG  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
JF, as I've already posted elsewhere and privately to Frank my advice is not to kill the CR off but to control it better.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about with my site's demographics but if it makes you feel better to try to put us down, knock yourself out. It doesn't matter to me wink


Pramberger JP-185 Bubinga
Kawai CP155
Yamaha P-120
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899508
04/18/05 08:36 PM
04/18/05 08:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Jack Frost  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
But it's a pretty darn good Telecaster as is.

I stripped off the Sunburst to reveal the natural Poplar and my eldest son James plays it now in NYC.

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899509
04/18/05 08:37 PM
04/18/05 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member
kathyk  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
Quote
Originally posted by CSG:
. . . change the culture of PW at this point without ticking off a few people. However, I believe *most* people prefer family friendly forums where the flames, name-calling, unresolvable hot-button issues, etc. are not allowed.

There is nothing inherently damaging about unresolvably hot button issues if rules of decorum are in place. In fact, grappling with these issues can ultimately (maybe not in your time or mine) solve them. The only problem with such topics are uncensured mules who are in there intent on solving the issue on their own time frame. Good moderation is the key. What a shame to dispense with this one, most potentially productive and intellectualy compelling forum.

Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899510
04/18/05 08:46 PM
04/18/05 08:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
"Throwing out the baby with the bath water" leaps to mind.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899511
04/18/05 08:46 PM
04/18/05 08:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
CSG Offline
Full Member
CSG  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 494
kathy, on the surface, the idealist in me would like to agree with you. My experience with online forums has proven my idealism wrong. Too much anonymity on the net and too much net rage. Just look around the CR and judge for yourself.

One either has ground rules that are strictly enforced (thus ticking off 10-20% of the membership) or allows a free-for-all (thus ticking off 80-90% of the membership who quit posting on your site).

You really have to walk a mile in a forum admin's shoes to see all sides. It's easy to suggest to someone how they should run their forum but until you've done it yourself you don't realize it's a tough job and you cannot please everybody.


Pramberger JP-185 Bubinga
Kawai CP155
Yamaha P-120
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899512
04/18/05 08:47 PM
04/18/05 08:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Tom--K  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Quote
Originally posted by CSG:


You don't have a clue what you're talking about with my site's demographics but if it makes you feel better to try to put us down, knock yourself out. It doesn't matter to me wink
I read your site quite a bit and the demographics are considerably younger than on the PW. Nothing wrong with that--it's just younger, and those folks by more things than older folks.

Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899513
04/18/05 08:49 PM
04/18/05 08:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Jack Frost Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
Jack Frost  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,454
Maine
Quote
Originally posted by CSG:
You don't have a clue what you're talking about with my site's demographics but if it makes you feel better to try to put us down, knock yourself out. It doesn't matter to me wink
I don't have a clue who you are and I have never commented on your site's demographics because I have no idea what your site is.

Really, I have no idea who you are. None.

jf


"Make the pie higher." GWB
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899514
04/18/05 08:50 PM
04/18/05 08:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
CSG,

This forum has been successful exactly because there are no strict guidelines. I do not think that there will be even a fraction as much traffic at pianoworld with the changes you seem to be pushing here. Of course, I could be wrong. We shall see what a piano related subject only forum will look like traffic-wise.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: DARNIT Frank.... #899515
04/18/05 08:51 PM
04/18/05 08:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member
kathyk  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
CSG, there are plenty of large forums out there that manage to be family friendly and do just fine with strict rules. All it takes are a few enforcements to send out a strong and clear message of what is to be tolerated.

If CR is abandoned, one of the biggest sources of hits for Franks forums will be lost. I think he can capitalize on us and have a win-win situation.

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