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Re: Painting a baby grand #89739
05/24/02 04:48 PM
05/24/02 04:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 14,228
Louisiana
Jolly Offline
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Louisiana
You know, if this is one of the "workhorse" models with the plainer woodwork...

Just think what you could do with some Delmar drum coverings and a little contact cement. A WMP or perhaps a gold glitter finish. Maybe black oyster. Or what about a green pearl?

Remember Ludwig's Psychedelic Red finish from the 60s?

Ok, does anyone remember the 60s? Tune in, turn on, and drop out! wink


www.coffee-room.com

Over 1.4M (and counting) posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.
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Re: Painting a baby grand #89740
05/24/02 05:01 PM
05/24/02 05:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 757
Tulsa, OK
the artist Offline
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the artist  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 757
Tulsa, OK
What about those kits that give you a 'crackle' finish?? - (Or Fleckstone?).
I would imagine that would entirely cover the 'partially' refinished part.

& I've seen some pretty amazing work done with crackle finishes..

Re: Painting a baby grand #89741
05/24/02 07:01 PM
05/24/02 07:01 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
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Larry  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Here's a suggestion on how to refinish the piano in satin black without having to spend a fortune or have a spray booth. It will take some time, and you'll have to have a place like your garage or somewhere so that you can step outside when applying stinky stuff. But if you do it like I'm going to show you, your piano will look almost factory finished.

Take off every piece of casework that will come off, and leave the main body of the piano til last. You won't have to strip the piano at all. But it is *important* that you remember that if it will come loose, you take it loose. Don't try to leave two pieces of wood attached to each other. Get you a box of ziplock bags and put all the screws and other hardware into baggies, separated by where they came from, and write it on the baggie with a felt pen. If you don't, you'll be standing there looking at a pile of different sizes of screws and won't know which one goes where.

What you'll need:

A worktable on wheels that puts you at a standing height. (mine is just a plywood airfreight crate that I put wheels on. All it cost me was the cost of the wheels.)

A few screwdrivers, small and medium sized in slotted and philips heads.
An empty Windex spray bottle.
A couple of cheap plastic putty knives
A perfectly flat sided piece of 2X4 1' long, and another one about 2' long.

Supplies:(you'll need to find a professional refinisher's supply house. Don't bother looking for some of this stuff at the do-it-yourself stores)

1 pint catylized Bondo (and a tube of hardner)
2 gallons of sanding sealer (maybe more)
2 quarts of gloss black lacquer (I like ML Campbell)
2 gallons of clear gloss lacquer (ML Campbell)maybe more
A couple of empty paint cans and lids
a couple dozen foam sanding blocks, medium grit (about the size of a bar of soap, they are washable and reusable)
220, 400, 1000, and 1500 grit wet or dry sandpaper.
1 roll of 0000 steel wool (don't bother with pads, there's a reason you'll need it in the roll)
A few cheap paintbrushes, and 1 good quality paint brush that won't shed.
1 gallon of cheap grade lacquer thinner
2 gallons of spray grade lacquer thinner
one box of Scott "Box-o-Rags" paper towels
Various old rags as needed.

Here's what to do:

1>Take some dry 220 grit sandpaper and sand the pieces until the finish is smooth, and nothing looks like it will separate from the finish. Don't worry about getting it all off. You're going to be doing it in black. You just want to make sure the old finish isn't going to fail underneath the new finish. In fact, the more of the old finish you can leave, the better, as long as it's solidly stuck to the wood.
2>If you have any chips or small dents that need filling, mix up a little Bondo and fill the spots. Use a cheap plastic putty knife to smooth it down. Let it set for a day, then recoat if needed. The first filling might sink a bit.
3>Let the second coat sit a day, then dry sand with 220 grit sandpaper to smooth.
4>Using a cheap paintbrush, apply a coat of sanding sealer. Let it sit for a day.
5>Fill your Windex bottle with plain water. Spray water liberally on an area of the piece that has been coated with sanding sealer, and take a sanding block and sand in a circular motion, sanding til the surface is dull and as flat as it will get. Wipe up the white slush and let the piece dry. Apply another coat of sanding sealer with your cheap paintbrush. You can sand just as soon as the sanding sealer is dried now - maybe a few hours. Keep applying coats of sanding sealer and sanding them until the surface of the piece is smooth as silk to the touch when dry. Once you've reached this point, let the piece rest for a few days.
6>Now apply one last coat of sanding sealer, only this time cut it by 30% or so with spray grade lacquer thinner. Use one of your clean, empty paint cans to hold this mixed sealer. Don't pour it back into the main can of sealer. Let dry. This time instead of a sponge sanding block, take a piece of 400 grit sandpaper and tear it in half longways. Wrap it to your perfectly flat piece of 2X4, spray the piece liberally with water, and gently sand the piece using the flat 2X4 acting as a plane to get the high spots sanded down to the low spots so that you end up with a flat surface. Once you're satisfied that the piece is flat, clean it up and put it away til it is good and dry.
7>Using a cheap paintbrush, apply a thin coat of black lacquer, cut in half with spray grade lacquer thinner. Again, use on of your clean, empty paint cans to hold this mixed paint. Don't put it back in the main paint can. You don't need any more than it takes to get even color coverage. Let the piece dry til the next day.
8>After it has rested overnight, spray it liberally with water and sand it smooth with a sanding sponge. Use your old ones, since the grit is a bit worn down. When finished, wipe it clean and put it away to dry.
9.>Inspect the piece to see if you sanded through the black anywhere, and recoat that spot as needed. Let any touched up spots dry, then wet sand, repeat until you have a smooth even coat of black. Let it rest a few days.
10.>In a clean, empty paint can, mix half clear gloss lacquer and half spray grade lacquer thinner. Apply evenly with a high grade paintbrush. The fewer strokes with the brush the better. The paint will settle down as it dries.
11>The next day, apply another coat of the mixed clear gloss lacquer.
12>The next day, spray small areas liberally with water, and sand in a circular motion, using a light touch. Sand until the surface is uniformly dull and smooth.
13>Apply one last coat of clear gloss lacquer. Let it set for a day.
14.Examine the piece to make sure you don't have any spots with no black color, and that the surface is good and smooth other than the few brush marks left from the last application of lacquer. Then get ready to sweat.....
15.Tear a piece of 400 grit sandpaper into four equal parts. Fold the piece of sandpaper so that you have two folds that meet on the backside, giving you sandpaper on both sides. Otherwise, the sandpaper will keep wadding up in your hand as you sand. Wet the piece liberally with water, and wet sand in a *straight line* this time, not in a circular motion. You can fold the sandpaper around an old sponge sanding block if you want, to keep it sort of flat. Taking a section at a time and keeping plenty of water on the piece, sand in a straight line until all the brush marks are sanded away, and the surface is smooth.
16> Once you've done the entire piece with the 400 grit, switch to 1000 grit wet or dry sandpaper, and repeat step 15. Don't be stingy with the sandpaper. You'll go through a lot of it.
17>Switch to 1500 grit sandpaper, and repeat step 15.
18>Wipe the piece clean and dry. Inspect it to make sure that the finish is smooth, and there are no sanding scratches showing, or other imperfections.
19>Take the 2' long piece of 2X4 with the flat surface, cut a 2.5' length of the 0000 steel wool off the roll, and cover the *perfectly flat wide side* of the 2X4 with the steel wool, wrapping it over the ends. Wet the piece liberally, and in long, straight, light strokes, rub the piece down with the wet steel wool until you achieve a nice satin lustre.
20. The 2X4 allows you to keep a straight consistent look to the satin lustre. Small areas need to be wet down and done with a small piece of steel wool folded in your hand. Just watch to see that you're blending the "satinized" look into the rest of the piece you did with the 2X4. When you're done, there shouldn't be any glossy look left anywhere, you should have a nice smooth satin finish with no brush marks and no sanding scratches showing.

It is always best to spray sealers and lacquers, but what you get in spray cans isn't fit for anything. And while it is far more preferrable to spray these finishes, in your situation you *can* achieve a good finish with a paint brush. You just have to learn how to use sandpaper.

In broad steps, you are simply cleaning up the piece and dry sanding it smooth, building a film of sealer that will level out the surface, coating it with color, then building up a layer of clear coat lacquer to protect it all. You don't want the layer of sanding sealer to be any thicker than is needed to get a smooth surface. And remember, the key to the whole thing is the prepwork *before* the clear lacquer goes on. Don't rush those steps.

Also, things that require paint on both sides get tricky. I suggest that you finish the underside of the lid, the lid flap, and the inside (decal side) of the fallboard first, then put them away to let them cure for as long as possible before you try to do the other side. Even after you're done and it looks perfect, it will be weeks and weeks before the finish is hard enough to allow you to sit the piece down on the new finish.

Once you've got all these pieces done, then you can take the piano itself to the garage and do this process to the rim and the legs. Once you've finished the rim, let it sit for several weeks and cure before you have anyone move it back into the house.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought this might be of interest to lots of people.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: Painting a baby grand #89742
05/24/02 07:43 PM
05/24/02 07:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Norbert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Larry....

..I'm gonna ship all our [to be refinished!] pianos and grands, from now on.... to YOU!!

W H O W !!


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Painting a baby grand #89743
05/24/02 08:27 PM
05/24/02 08:27 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Larry  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
This was just a "down and dirty" list for getting a decent finish on an old cheap piano without a spray booth, Norbert. It's nowhere near what I do in the shop on a good piano, where I have a spray booth and a drying room.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: Painting a baby grand #89744
05/24/02 08:43 PM
05/24/02 08:43 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,964
The Evergreen State (WA)
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member
jodi  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,964
The Evergreen State (WA)
Wow. I have a nice antique desk that desperately needs refinishing that I'd like to send you, Larry. wink JOdi

Re: Painting a baby grand #89745
05/25/02 01:53 AM
05/25/02 01:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Norbert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
I have someone else do our refinishing.

Now I can see why it takes months to get it back.

"Years" [seemingly!]....if there's a line up........

OUCH!!

Norbert
[not 'nuts'... on refinishing....]


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Painting a baby grand #89746
05/28/02 09:30 AM
05/28/02 09:30 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 89
Nashville, Illinois
H
Heath Offline OP
Full Member
Heath  Offline OP
Full Member
H

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 89
Nashville, Illinois
Larry,

Thanks for the direction. I appreciate your thorough response. I'm not sure whether the piano is worth the time this will take, but I think I might try a small piece first and see how it goes. If I'm pleasantly surprised, I might decide it is worth it. smile


Heath
---------------------------
Baldwin SF-10
Re: Painting a baby grand #89747
04/14/08 02:43 PM
04/14/08 02:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2
S
stevenee Offline
Junior Member
stevenee  Offline
Junior Member
S

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2
I too am trying to restore a piano that was originally wood grained and will soon have an Ebony finish. I found a detailed post that had
instructions very similar to the brief synopsis you gave below. I already have the piano completely disassembled and have applied 3
coats of sanding sealer, with more than 30 hours of sealing and sanding.

My instructions were to apply semi-gloss black lacquer (cut by 50% with thinner) after the last coat of sanding sealer (after 400 grit
sanding), but when I tried this, the black lacquer would not take, it is almost completely transparent.

Would you have any suggestions on how to make the lacquer cover the old color of the piano.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Steve

Re: Painting a baby grand #89748
04/14/08 04:55 PM
04/14/08 04:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 615
Columbus, GA
S
S. Phillips Offline
500 Post Club Member
S. Phillips  Offline
500 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 615
Columbus, GA
Steve,

Why don't you send us some pictures of what you have already done so we can see where you are in the process. I'm not sure what the problem is except that you probably over thinned the lacquer. Let us see your progress and we can probably help. You didn't say that you stripped the original finish. If you did not that might be the start of the problem.

This probably needs to be moved to the tech forum. There is lots of expertise there to help.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Painting a baby grand #89749
04/14/08 05:04 PM
04/14/08 05:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Paint it red. This will probably be your only chance.


Slow down and do it right.
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Re: Painting a baby grand #89750
04/14/08 05:13 PM
04/14/08 05:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,290
Toronto
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Starting Over  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,290
Toronto
Interesting thread. It's 6 years old though so there won't be much feedback from he who shall not be mentioned... :rolleyes:


Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers

[Linked Image]
Re: Painting a baby grand #89751
04/14/08 05:54 PM
04/14/08 05:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Stevenee
Hey I can see this is your second posting so welcome to the Piano Forum.

This is not a good way to do black. If you want to do “satin black” forget the sanding sealer you are just spending a lot of money on nothing. You never have to use sanding sealer on anything…. Just cut the lacquer by 30% and use this as a sealer. For that matter Mohawk sells a brand Nulac that is self sealing lacquer. I have found this to be the best lacquer for pianos.

Secondly if you use aerosol spray cans to do this you are about as far away from success as you can get. Spray cans of lacquer are for touch-up only. The lacquer in them contains no catalyst and the surface will wrinkle if you put anything on the top, like another coat. Within five years this will peel like an orange.

The best way to do black is to start with miss- tints from the supply store. Like off whites and off greys or mistaken blacks. Each coat should be a slightly different colour so that you can see where you have sprayed last. Don’t forget to purchase solid colour, not transparent colours. Also purchase some catalyst, depending on the type of lacquer used here. Some lacquers are pre-cat, but the solid colours are not.

Spray coats of miss-tinted lacquer until you have built up past the grain…. So it looks like a skating rink. After each coat is dry you will be filling all the craters as you go with each coat. Eventually the surface becomes smooth enough to apply the last coat.

Now what you should be purchasing is lacquer paint. Not a high gloss transparent lacquer. The lacquer from ML Campbell is a good one try Eroko brand and the “resistant black satin”. This will go on satin and you can top coat with high gloss if you desire a higher sheen.

Using alcohol black (NGR stain) colour in the lacquer as a tint…….. this will not work….. it sounds like this is what you are doing there by the result( transparent black with the old colour showing through).

Never cut your final coat of black with thinner. Use it straight out of the can. Oh sure, you can add some capfuls of thinner to your gun cup as you go……….. This will help the lacquer to “tack” as you build up while spraying. The more thinner the faster it dries though so if you have too much it will orange peel when dry.

Remember black is one of the toughest colours to do because it is opaque not transparent. Solid colours show all damage right away.

The trick is to build up the surface until it is showing absolutely smooth with no divets or bumps. Then the final coat should be the desired colour. And further the top sheen if you like.

If you would like any further instruction click on my web site address and I can talk to you off line……..

Hope this helps some…….black is tough to do properly…… most like to “fudge it”. And then of course it looks fudged


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Painting a baby grand #89752
04/14/08 06:01 PM
04/14/08 06:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Norbert  Offline
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Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Dan:

"You're de man" thumb

Norbert wink


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Painting a baby grand #89753
04/14/08 06:33 PM
04/14/08 06:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Norbert,
I resemble that remark, thank you. Now where are my stars??????

I am going to have to close my shop and drive out there so you can buy me lunch………hehehehe


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Painting a baby grand #89754
04/14/08 06:36 PM
04/14/08 06:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Norbert  Offline
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Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Why stars?

They only go up to five at this board.... shocked

Everyone can easily get 1000 - should one run into the wrong character in our parking lot.... laugh

Come'on over, let's do lunch!

Norbert wink


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: Painting a baby grand #89755
04/14/08 06:43 PM
04/14/08 06:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Later this week, or next, I will come and pound on one of those Estonia Grand’s. I hear they have pretty good sound…………
I have no idea what this star thingy is. Some have it, while others do not. Funny thing though, I didn’t even notice it when I first got started here a few weeks ago………………..


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Painting a baby grand #89756
04/14/08 06:45 PM
04/14/08 06:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 14,228
Louisiana
Jolly Offline
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Posts: 14,228
Louisiana
He who shall not be mentioned once made this statement - "I've made more money with my spray gun than any other tool in the shop".


www.coffee-room.com

Over 1.4M (and counting) posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.
Re: Painting a baby grand #89757
04/14/08 06:59 PM
04/14/08 06:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
This is a true statement Jolly. If you know what you are doing you CAN make good money using your spray gun……. And not just on pianos too……

13000 posts?? Boy o boy I have a ways to go there……. I think I just got discouraged…….


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Painting a baby grand #89758
04/14/08 08:35 PM
04/14/08 08:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Quote
I have no idea what this star thingy is.
It's wether or not you are a rock star.

I'm too old for this - so I turned mine off.....

Norbert wink


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
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