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Pianos are not good investments.
Violins, violas, and cellos are VERY good investments. They go up in value slowly, compared to more lucrative investments, but steadily.
Look at Guadagnini violins-10 years ago they could be had for as little as 2,3, or 4 hundred thousand. Now they are all up above one million.

Curiously, I just had my piano appraised by a reputable appraiser and was advised, to my surprise, that the piano is worth about $35,000 more than I paid for it. Apparently, the "limited edition" aspect of it, which was ridiculed on this forum in the past, when I asked about it, meant something to the appraiser. I realize, of course, that a piano is worth only what someone will pay for it. Also realize that Bosendorfer raised their prices a lot since I purchased the piano new about four and a half years ago. Nevertheless, it is nice to know that at least someone thinks the piano appreciated in value. "This piano will appreciate in value for reasons of artistic merit, craftmanship, and rarity".

This was surprising given all the other information I have been able to find about the long term value of pianos.

Pianos are great investments in enjoyment, happiness, music-making, and delight. Isn't that enough?

Re: Guadagnini violins, my grandfather decided not to buy one in the early 1950s because it was $500, and he didn't want to pay that much. The violin market is ridiculous. Meanwhile, pianos, as others have said, must be bought because you will love and use them.

Thanks for the responses. This is just something I've been thinking about. I was thinking more in terms of someone buying a quality used piano, which has already taken the initial drop in price by being sold for the first time. If you held onto it for ten years, you could probably still get your initial investment out of it, and maybe a little more if it has been well maintained. As some stated, there are some good deals out there right now. But yes, there are maintenence costs along the way.

There are, and are going to be, alot of used pianos on the market. And the average person's ability to pay will be down. So, at least short term, there will be less demand and more supply.

Why is the violin, viola, and cello market so different from the piano market? Plenty of violins are available, of all different levels. Are there more players? Do violin dealers approach old instruments differently?

RoyP: Part of the problem here is your definition of investment. An investment where you would get "your initial investment out of it" at the end of ten years is a terrible return on your money, especially given the need for ongoing maintenance. You would do better, even at today's interest rates, with your money in a savings account. Indeed, in light of inflation you will have lost money even if you sell the piano for what you paid for it.

In any event, I stick by what I said earlier. Buy a piano because you love it and want to play it, not for what you can get if you resell it ten years on.

As for violins, they are just different. Apparently they do not wear out in any meaningful sense. Let's face it: pianos are machines, and they wear out!

Commodities are only worth what the market will bear. I think in the next couple of years we might all be finding that what we once regarded as "assets", might soon find themselves in the "liabilities" column. If this economy gets worse, we won't be able to give pianos away . I'm just glad that mine are paid for. There's not much solace in being a piano teacher either, as it's the luxury market that evaporates first. The fact that Piano Mart is inundated might be telling the tale. There again new cars of all kinds aren't selling either. There is a genuine wait and see attitude that has taken hold of the consumer in general. Don't forget folks, retailers just suffered the worst sales since 1970 for the Christmas shopping season.

So if a buy a piano from you today, how much more will you give me for it a year from today?

Was that an insurance appraisal? I ask because insurance appraisals are almost always inflated as opposed to appraisals to set a selling price. So if you'd like to realize your profit perhaps it's time to burn down your house.

I've often wondered about this concept of investment. It seems to be a variant of the "greater fool theory." People think that investing in stocks is investing in the company. It's only an investment in the company when you purchase an initial public offering (IPO). Otherwise you run the risk of being a greater fool. The reason is because in all post IPO stock trades someone has already determined that the stock you wish to buy is not a good investment (at least not good enough to hang on to). That's why they're selling it. So who's the greater fool?? Time will tell. BTW, the same is true of real estate investments unless the owner does something to improve the property.

A real investment is when someone adds value. That could mean redoing the kitchen, investing in a start up piano store or in adding inventory OR manufacturing (or remanufacturing) instruments. When a rebuilder buys that 100 year old Steinway and replaces everything in it value is added to the instrument. How much is added would be determined by the economics of the moment and the quality of the rebuild.

Investing in IPOs invests money in the company in question (in addition to allowing ownership to cash out a portion of that ownership). Generally IPOs happen when the market is strong and the owners wish to realize some of the fruits of their labor and at the same time raise funds to further build the business (and/or payoff early investors).

Anything else is playing the greater fool game.

I had the piano appraised by a recognized piano appraiser, not by an insurance company. I believe he used the retail MSRP of new Bosendorfers as a baseline. The fact it, Bosendorfer pianos cost more today than they did when I bought the piano several years ago. Here is some of the information that was provided as part of the appraisal:

"This is an appraised value, since you have instrument number one, and it really is a limited edition, there really are no comparisons to used instruments of this nature. Your appraised figure is the replacement cost in case of loss. It is worth whatever someone will pay for it. However, here are the current retail prices of the Model 170 (These are not limited editions listed below).

170 5’ 8” Satin and Polished Ebony 93,530.
170 5’ 8” Satin and Polished White, other colors 100,546.
170 5’ 8” Polished, Satin, Open-pore: Walnut, Cherry, Mahogany, Pomele, Bubinga, Wenge 102,884.
170 5’ 8” Polished, Satin, Open-pore: Pyramid Mahogany, Amboyna, Rio Rosewood, Burl Walnut, Birdseye Maple, Yew, Macassar 107,560.
170 5’ 8”“Johann Strauss” Satin and Polished Ebony 101,106.
170 58 “Johann Strauss,” other finish 119,812.
170 5’ 8’“Franz Schubert” Satin and Polished Ebony 101,106.
170 5’8”“Franz Schubert,” other finish 119,812.
170 5’ 8”“Vienna” 149,070.
170 5’8”“Senator” 112,236.
170 5’ 8”“Chopin” 136,822.
170 5’ 8”“Liszt” 119,812.
170 5’ 8”“Yacht” 123,460.
170 5’ 8”“Artisan,” Satin and Polished 173,032.
170 5’8”“Edge” 101,014.
170 5’ 8” Baroque 128,138.
170 5’ 8” Louis XVI 128,138.
170 5’ 8” 180th Anniversary Special Edition 98,208.

The closest model to yours would be The 180th Anniversary Special Edition."

I think New Yorkers are generally too optimistic and capitalistic. (This is just a joke!)

Of course, I believe even New York City is making economic headlines recently...

Now that's a direct question. Perhaps the dealers who trumpet their pianos as investments should answer this just as directly. Here.

All the appraiser did was copy info from Fine's latest Supplement. Those are not the prices the instruments would sell for at a dealer.

Also, since there are apparently 174 other pianos like this one built, why would he say there are no comparisons with other used pianos?

This is the replacement value for insurance purposes.

This is the $ you will get if you sell the piano.

BIG difference between the two.

You should change you sig from "Rank Piano Amateur" to "Senior Common Sense Expert".

It's quite uncommon for merchandise to appreciate with age, even when well kept. (And in a low-demand market like pianos, even less likely.)

MAK - I hope you didn't pay anything for your piano appraisal. Anyone could check todays retail price. It is meaningless. Boesendorfers are discounted. They make so few pianos that they are in effect ALL limited editions. Limited edition is in any case a marketing ploy to liberate a few more dollars from the buyer. Second hand buyers will likely see no added value whatsoever in the limited edition, as the functionality of the instrument is no different to dozens of similar instruments.

Anyone who believes pianos are investments is deluded.

The rarified violin market is interesting though. True rarity there. The market for vintage and rare guitars also appears to be holding up well.

Understood. But isn't there a chance that the value of the piano on the resale market has indeed gone up since I purchased it four years ago simply because the retail cost of a Bosendorfer has gone up during that time? Of course I realize a piano is not an investment in the classic sense, but isn't it also true that if one is concerned about long-term value, some pianos are going to hold value over time much better than others? To make an analogy, a Rolex or Patek watch may not appreciate in value in most cases, but in all cases will retain a higher percentage of its original value long term much better than, say, a Timex or Casio.

The only way to find out is to put the instrument on the market and consummate an actual sale.

As to some pianos holding their value better over time. Yes, of course. Some were built better. Some will be cared for and/or played less. Some brands will become more fashionable. Some brands+build years will in retrospect be more highly subjectively appreciated. At the end of the day, however, acoustic pianos are depreciating assets whose parts deteriorate inexorably with time and use.

I also know someone special who explains to me that all these little $200 bottles of special cremes, gels and cosmetics are really long-term investments in her ageless beauty. As long as they -- and this thought -- bring her happiness today who am I to rain on her parade?

Don't let all the cold talk of financial numbers rain on yours either. For goodness sake, you own and play on a wonderful piano most of us can only dream about. Focus on what counts and go play your piano!