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Hi all,

I a relative newbie here, so please go easy on me.

I see so many used Steinway pianos for sale that have been completely rebuilt, mostly older ones (over 40 years old) that I'm a little confused.

If I take a Steinway piano and spend what it takes to completely rebuild it properly and bring it back to all its glory, how is it different that starting with a "lesser" brand piano and putting the same components into it? For example, if I take a Yamaha piano that needs rebuilding and put the same components into it that the Steinway has and use the same care regulating it and voicing, etc., wouldn't the Yahama be the same acoustically and mechanically at a much lower cost?

Granted the Steinway will sell for more because of the name.

Like I said, I'm a newbie when it comes to high-end pianos, so maybe I'm missing something here.

Devils4ever:
You're forgetting that the structure of the piano remains even after a rebuild.
Several components of the structure and design remain close to the same even after a complete rebuild.
It's important though, to know a couple things:
There aren't a "lot" of good rebuilders in the country. A lot of the "completely rebuilt" Steinways you see are not completely rebuilt, and are not as good as new. But a properly rebuilt piano will be better than new (might also cost $30k or so for the rebuilding work).

But to the point of your question:
The belly structure and rim are integral parts of the piano, and affect it's tone production. The inherent differences between the Yamaha and Steinway would still be apparent after a rebuild.
Quite simply, a rebuilt Yamaha is a rebuilt Yamaha, and a rebuilt Steinway is a rebuilt Steinway.
There's a lot to be said for the rebuilder, but all things being equal, you hope to have a better-than-new piano after it's all done. And of course we see differences between new pianos with the same componentry (i.e. all pianos with Renner actions are not high-end).

Welcome to the forum by the way!

*note* this was kind of a quick and dirty answer, I'm sorry I didn't have time to go into more detail right now.

KlavierBauer,

Thanks for your quick response. I didn't realize the belly structure and rim played such an important role in the sound of the piano. I assumed the soundboard, strings, plate, hammers, action produced the sound, not the "framework".

How does one tell if a piano was properly rebuilt? I've seen some gorgeous looking pianos that claimed to be rebuilt.

One doesn;t tell uinless one is an expert

Hire a very reputable tech or purchase from a very reputable rebuilder. If you are near NYC you would do well to visit Faust -Harrison

http://www.faustharrisonpianos.com

Besides having beautiful rebuilds, they have some interesting literature on the details of what, exactly, it is that makes a quality rebuild. I'm not sure if they provide all the info on their website, but they have very informative handouts and as I said, stunning, stunning pianos.

Devils4ever,

You can have an excellent quality in the rebuilt and it doesn't mean you have a great piano.
Pianos are really individuals specially when it comes to a rebuilt instrument.

A good rebuilt piano it is as expensive as a new piano. Perhaps a New S&S will cost you a bit more.
In my opinion "IF" you are going to buy a piano in that range.
Set a budget an get the best possible piano for your money. Get out of the box and consider beyond Steinway.
You will be surprise the quality you can buy for the same money you are going to pay for a Steinway.

For the 2nd time! I agree with iyi on this one.

I am amazed that a market exists in this country for rebuilt pianos. Considering all the things that can go wrong with a piano and the enormous cost of a proper rebuild there must be some very savvy or very foolhardy folks out there looking for golden age classics to restore to their former glory.

I can understand why some piano techs will rebuild instruments on spec if they get a great buy on a rebuild candidate. And I can appreciate that some of these projects turn into stunning instruments. What I don't understand is the apparent enthusiasm of potential buyers for something produced in a cottage industry that by most accounts has more charlatans in it than actual competent rebuilders.

I totally agree with you Steve.
It is non sense but the name S&S is powerful.
I have a friend who is conductor and his sister is a pianist (Pro).
We went to look at Kemble 131 and also at Kawai K-80 both at the same dealer, beautiful uprights. He called me two days latter and told me, he bought a 1920's Steinway.
An amazing POS, I told his sister why did you guys bought this piece of junk?
They told me... junk? It is a Steinway and cost less than the Kawai or Kemble.
I couldn't believe those words came out of her mouth (a pro-pianist)
One thing the piano it was bought for their mother and not for thier own use.

I agree with you both... well written post Steve R.

It's interesting to me that Steinway didn't reuild pianos for years and years and years... then they realized that they were losing business to themselves. They saw that they had done SUCH a good job marketing, that now people preferred to buy an older, "rebuilt" instrument, rather than a new one. Steinway's response? They started doing their own rebuilding!

When I was shopping for a grand in December I went through the Rebuilt golden age vs new or newish piano decision and ultimately I decided that I would feel better buying a newer piano.

It is much easier to understand why people are drawn to rebuilds when you go to a place like Faust Harrison, since the pianos are done, and fabulous. But this quality comes at a premium in price of course. Premium, that is, above unknown rebuilders, but not premium above new Steinways (I believe).

A former teacher of mine had a fire in her home that badly damaged her Steinway. Her insurance company offered to buy her a brand new Steinway, and she opted instead to have hers rebuilt. (apparently a lot of sentiment attached to it, her father gave it to her for her 18th b'day yadda yadda). It was rebuilt by a very competent tech who only works on S&S and M&H.

Let me tell you, it may say Steinway on the fallboard, but it sure doesn't sound like one. Playing it is a constant struggle, getting any tonal shading is nearly impossible. I am sad for her, she could have bought a new (and much nicer) instrument.

I am wary of rebuilds as a result of her experience.

I guess is also perceived-value enhanced by the romantic myth of the “old world” “golden era” “antique value” etc etc.

plays88keys:
playing a constant struggle, no tonal shading ... sounds just like a Steinway to me!


(har de har har.... )

If people wouldn't see the name "Steinway" on most rebuilts - apart from a few notable exceptions - they wouldn't give you half the price for them.

Just only today I spoke with one of my [actually very friendly!] competition in town that does exactly that - and very well - if I may add: rebuilt old and also sell new!

No, not Steinway 'new'.

But their top Korean made lines by Samick were - in both our opinion - as good as any rebuilt or used Steinway they had on the floor.

No, actually *better*.

But I was told they won't try to convert the unconvertible and will continue to gladly accept more money for....

.... less !!

Norbert :rolleyes:

Excuse my interuption of the Steinway bashers club, but not all S&S rebuilds are junk and not all rebuilds cost what a new one costs or what Faust Harrison charges. But don't let that get in the way of your bash party. :b:

Good rebuilds can be had for competitive prices. They aren't necessarily better than other pianos just another option. At less than the price of a new S&S they are just as worthy of being considered by a buyer as anything else. It all comes down to your taste and budget.

And you still call that very competent?

JohnC, I wasn't bashing Steinways. I own one and wouldn't have anything else! I was merely commenting on what happened to one person's Steinway that got toasted in a fire and should never have been rebuilt.

Yes. The man that did the rebuild used to maintain the pianos at The White House. He knows what he's doing. That piano should never have been rebuilt. The owner insisted on it because of her sentimental attachment to it.

I'm not bashing Steinway here, and as I've said many times before, I think Steinway does what Steinway is designed to do very well.

There is a premium price to pay for premium rebuilding work though, and there's no way around that.
Anyone selling you a $10k rebuilding job isn't rebuilding your piano. I'm sorry this game is played with the term "rebuilt", but it is.
When you see such a discrepancy between prices, you have to ask why? What is the lower priced rebuild not offering me that the higher priced one is?
Does that conversely mean that all high priced rebuilds are good? Certainly not...
But as someone who works for a dealer known for the quality and integrity of their rebuilding work (among other things) I can tell you what goes into a good and complete rebuilding job, and that it isn't cheap.
It's obviously a booming business, and people are finding value in it, or Steinway wouldn't have entered into it.

What's Steinway charge for a rebuild of a B with their best finish? ..... well over $30k. Not $5k, or $10k, $30k. It costs more to rebuild a piano properly than to build a new one, and often (notice I didn't say always) doesn't represent a good value to the consumer basing value on a quality/performance to dollar ratio. I do understand though that people place value on different things, and also know that sometimes a rebuild is perfect for a person and their old piano.

Plays,

It sounds as if your saying that due to fire damage it wasn't worth rebuilding. That's fine. I didn't quite understand it that way the first time I read it.

My comments weren't direct specifically at you but just the general tone of this thread that basically only an idiot would buy or rebuild one.

I have no disagreement with the fair criticism S&S receives for poor factory prep or the fact that many of their dealers don't seem to care about prep either. You won't hear me try and defend them.

I have no problem with those who just don't like the tone, price, or other subjective evaluations. To each his or her own.

But when the implication is that smart people would spend their money on other than S&S because only snobs and ignoramuses buy S&S I tend to get a bit peeved. This thread seems to be following that trend.

Quite frankly this forum is full of people who act like finding a good sounding and playing S&S is much more rare than hitting the lotto. But pick most any other brand and you find a forum full of people who can't say enough good things about them.

Sorry for the rant, but I've held back for a long time and today seemed to be the day to let it go. My apology for you getting hit in the crossfire.

Yes. That's why all these pianists chose to own Steinways -- because they are ignorant snobs.

You started a trend. My turn to blow steam.