Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......

I will let them speak for themselves if they so choose.


Apart from the fact that JA repeatedly brought up issues with which you stongly disagreed, please show me one post where he was "destructive" or "vulgar."

And as for me, there was a lot more to my post than the two discrete issues to which you replied. i would be interested....


jf

Yes, Larry, that *is a threat. There are many, many others here besides you. Many who you have driven off. If I can stop the hemorrahaging, I will - even if that means exposing you for what you are. (Which BTW, for any of you at a 4th grade reading level or lower, is nota peacemaker).

You know what is kind of hard to take and is one reason why I didn't have a warm and fuzzy feeling from this well-intentioned thread?

There are lots of people here who have never, ever uttered a rude word on these boards -- even in political discussions. Not once. Yet the premise of this thread is that we've *all* contributed to the lack of civility that is driving people away. Or that part of the problem is just that some folks have "thin skins."

That just isn't so, IMHO. I think those who *have* behaved badly should improve and should apologize for their missteps and endeavor not to repeat them, and if this thread moves them in that direction, that's good. I don't think they should say that "everyone does it," though. 'Cause everyone doesn't.

I hope Larry is correct when he suggests that most people here mean no malice and are good at heart and all of that. But all we have to go on are the words in the post. And if those words are personally insulting, then you can't blame people if they start to have doubts the speaker's heart of gold.

Food for thought, definitely. Me, I'm going to bed.

Kathy wrote above:
Yes, Larry, that *is a threat. There are many, many others here besides you. Many who you have driven off. If I can stop the hemorrahaging, I will - even if that means exposing you for what you are. [Big Grin] (Which BTW, for any of you at a 4th grade reading level or lower, is nota peacemaker).

Thanks for the kind words.

kk: " I have no interest in baiting Larry. I'd be very happy to see him vaporized from here, as I am sure, he would me."

Speaking for myself, I hope both of you stay, perhaps without the personal invective (I've been subject to names from both of you, and do not hold myself above having done the same myself). As for JA, he almost always ended our debates by saying he was morally superior to me, and would not even bother to answer my questions or read my posts. Why bother talking to someone like that?

JF, kk - I PMed kk some time ago about one particular post Netizen made to me that bothered me a lot at the time, that kk was also involved in. I have no reason to want to drag it up in public now, but it is the single most personally repulsive and hostile thing I have ever seen spoken here. Period. kk knows exactly what I am referring to. As for dragging up old posts to public view again, whether Nettie's, kk's or Larry's - why bother? Post something new and constructive and move on. Larry is not the problem. He is one of the most interesting people on here - and we just had a religion debate where I called his views "fairy tales". You don't see either of us wanting the other driven from the Forums, now do you?

Now I intend to go play with our baby. I will engage in direct, even heated debate with anyone. I would prefer that the debates be less personal, and more over the ideas. I hope kk and jf stay and post. I suspect that Kenny will come back once the atmosphere in here improves.

[Edit: and the word is "cretin" meaning 'idiot'. I believe you capitalized it confusing it with Cretan, a city-state in ancient Greece, and the source of a famous logic puzzle from ancient philosophy - imagine the phrase "All Cretans are always liars" spoken by a Cretan. Is this sentence true or false? At any rate, before you assume your critics are 'cretins' you may wish to know that I got my Ivy doctorate at 24, and my PBK at 19. I suspect there are a lot of other people on here with interesting backgrounds as well. Stay, but get off your high horse and start an interesting thread.]

You *did* run people off, Larrems.

Larry, I think you are wrong. I think that you would find upon review of old posts that the ridiculous liberals may be overboard in their nastiness towards Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-etal, but that you would be hard pressed to find posts where they directly and personally attacked a conservative POSTER in response to an issue post. If I am wrong, please educate me.

But this PERSONALIZED reply is your modus operandi--it is the rule rather than the exeption--and THAT more than anyting else here has set the tone....If you don't begin to hear that and own it, your initial post is not worth the pixels it......

jf

And Cindy, for all your partisan and pointed commentary, you have ALWAYS and WITHOUT A SINGLE EXCEPTION been civil and have NEVER made it personal, and yet you have been accused as being part of the problem...go figure?

jf

Hang on a minute, there.

This might well be the core of the problem.

If I say "Bush is like Hitler, or worse," many of you might find that shocking or offensive. That does *not* make my statement rude or inappropriate in any way.

I really do think that is where some folks get off track here. If you are negatively characterizing the PW person who wrote the post, you are being rude. If you are articulating a political position many would find noxious, that is not rude.

I find it wholly irrelevant if JA wrote things "for the sole purpose of creating division and hotility." If JA didn't insult or attack PW members, then there is nothing wrong with articulating fringe political positons.

Surely we can agree on that?

kathy - i tell you truly.... you need to chill.
Take a break, come back in a week or so....

you are like being Miss Angry Woman of the Century.

Larry, I could not disagree more. Zealous advocacy of an issue is always ok and usually admirable. If it is over the top it should be exposed as such. A response that is personal to the poster for having tried to make the case for an extreme postion is of a totally different order. Until you recognize that difference, Larry, you intitial post (which I thought was admirable) is without substance.

jf

I love debating you women on issues, (hi Cindy) but this fighting to fight, with nothing to talk about but the personalities of whomever you are fighting with, is downright idiotic. It's stupid. Drink some milk... it'll settle you down.

Now THAT is the smartest thing I have read tonight!

jf

jf: "Now THAT is the smartest thing I have read tonight!"

And he is way more mature than some of the posters here!

There are'nt many, Larry?! HA HA HAH!!!! You know, I almost sucked into your demand - had a list of a dozen or so, and realized how I'e be playing to and copping out onthem. No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum [YAWN]. Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.

Kathy wrote:
There are'nt many, Larry?! HA HA HAH!!!! You know, I almost sucked into your demand - had a list of a dozen or so, and realized how I'e be playing to and copping out onthem. No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum [YAWN]. Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.

Kathy claims to have a "list" of "a dozen or so", yet while everyone here would have seen these posters "public" and be aware they are gone, Kathy makes the excuse that to tell us who they are would be "copping out on them". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell she is making excuses for not having this supposed "list of a dozen or so", since it is idiotic to suppose that people who we all saw posting would object to someone calling attention to the fact that they are gone.

Now notice how revealing *this* part of her statement is:
No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum [YAWN]. Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.

So, Kathy finds a place that is in agreement "one sided", "ho hum", and she as much as admits she doesn't like it when people are getting along harmoniously. As I've said before, she can only see politics, not people, so in spite of the fact that we *still* have roughly half and half on the forum, she sees the friendliness and politeness that has been on the increase since she left a few weeks ago as being proof that it is a "right wing playground". Then she informs us that "we", meaning "her and her left wing allies", are "too nice" to join in where people are getting along peacefully and politely - an indication I suppose that they too find this objectionable, and prefer debate, strife, and want it to remain nothing but political battles.

I'd like to thank Kathy for putting it all into such an easy to understand picture of how her and her side views things.

Larry, I am not talking about this thread and I am not defending kathyk--tshe is a big girl who is more than capable of defending herself.

I am talking about your role here generally. You started this thread with a heartfelt appeal for peace and a (sort of) apology, but i truly think that you have no idea how much YOU have contributed to the tone of this place. I don't know what else to say that I have not said already, except that YOU more than any other poster here PERSONALIZE what would otherwise be an issue debate--albeit zealous and extreme. YOU are the one who, time after time, turns an issue debate into a referendum on the poster. REALLY. I am not making this up.

If you really mean what you said in your intitial post, you will contemplate this and own up to it. I think that most of your supporters would agree with me on this Larry, I really do. There is NOTHING wrong with zealous and even RIDICULOUS debate about issues, but as soon as your reply uses the word "you" (which it ALWAYS does), you have personalized it.

THIS is the problem in the Coffee Room.

REALLY.

Own it and the problem will go away.

jf