Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry

I agree with Jbryan's analysis. It is of paramount importance that George Bush (the second) gets another tax cut in, and the best one would be a cut in capital gains rather than income. Remember folks it is far easier to get a job from a rich man than a poor man.

Excellent!

What a wonderful theme for a theatre of the absurd play!

Now where's the French playwright who would take this on?

They are entitled to their opinions as are the materialists and logical positivists, but your outrage is not why I'm responding to your post.

Maybe, as I said, I am a student of ancient civilizations: I am more interested in our origins and in ancient history than in moral law, which if one thinks about it seriously, must be arrived at through logic and experience as well as divine revelations which appear in many more places than the Bible, and that too can be proved.

Wait, I have not gotten there yet, but I shall. Is it any more fantastic to believe that in the scheme of things a man could conceive himself to be another Stalin, could brutalize and brainwash his own subjects into believing such impossible things about distant foes, could transgress the ultimate moral laws, such as to bring upon himself and his realm the irresistible retribution of GOD through this self same foe?

I'm not surprised that such sentiments as lb's scare you. They scare me a little too though I'm more used to them and can counter them, and do, frequently enough. But belief is like a vice, and people will believe what they will believe.

There is a branch of fundamentalist Christianity that attempts to fix the time of the return of Christ (supposedly nobody is to know the exact date) and even tries to predict what he will do when he gets back here while a third and fourth sects battle each other over whether there will be a "rapture of the Church," the former group believing that true believers will be removed from the earth "in the twinkling of an eye" (the left behind series), while the other believes that we will have to survive a horrific tribulation period that shall see most people die, while those who are left alive will envy the dead. These people believe they must survive to greet the returning Christ as a faithful remnant. I have encountered members of the former group among Protestants only while there are members of the latter among both Catholics and Protestants.

I am aware that there is a very strong eschatological element within Islam too but I haven't studied it. Nor do I know much about the end times teachings in Hindu or Buddhist circles though I have heard they exist. I am more than concerned that these may be manipulated for political ends.

I am personally not particularly interested in all this stuff, just mentioning it because it is current among human beings on the earth at this time and it probably has some influence on human events.

But I do believe there is a higher dimension to it all, even if I can't figure out exactly what it is, who could? and it may not have anything to do with a particular religious path, matter of fact I'm pretty certain that it does not. the cycles of deep moral depravity followed by divine retribution or put another way nature countering itself, redressing its imbalances, seems to be beyond human confirmation. A Saddam would sooner or later bring about an anti-Saddam for his crimes were that great. The nemesis of Saddam may face an unpleasant reaction, perhaps from another direction; SARS. It is a divine drama yet to be played out? Perhaps. "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" Alfred North Whitehead (one of my favorites) or perhaps "may you live in interesting times" Ancient Chinese proverb, not considered a blessing.

Here it comes;

Emphasis mine! I have been there too many times, feels like I have high blood pressure, maybe I do. I take Ginko Biloba, garlic, lecithin, flax seed oil and am considering addition of COQ10. My heart and circulatory system are in good condition. I have had kidney stones, which landed me in hospital twice in 2001 for removal of one, passed the other. Very painful by the way, about as bad as it gets. Gone to doctors and had none since, been on a high calcium diet, seems counter intuitive, but knock on wood nothing since.

As for the moral selfrighteousness of some people, have you ever backed up and thought that people who did this were in a kind of imprisonment whereby they became divine pawns in a DIVINE game the likes of which you and I would be mere onlookers? They don't know they are enslaved or maybe they want to be.

I say DIVINE for lack of a better word for matters which are beyond common human understanding, but of which you clearly make reference; "Those same people who wanted Christ dead and asked the Americans (sorry, the Romans) to do the job shared your certainties and moral selfrighteousness. Your words are a crucifixion of the mind and spirit of man."

I played with a fable of Christ but it got too complex and I didn't think it made for very good reading. All I know is that there is a certain stiffness that can become physical when I feel too certain about anything and in order to avoid crucifixion of my mind and spirit I must blow it all away for a while.

I wonder if this is a common experience?

KlavierBauer
You are against this, because you are against the politics behind it. I am against this, because I cherish human life.

Does that mean you think I don't ?

I like you post very much.

Not being sure of the value of one's ideas, opinions, belief is IMHO the only sign of sanity that would give hope for a positive outcome.

The rest is going round and round in circles.

David Burton, I am more interested in our origins and in ancient history than in moral law, which if one thinks about it seriously, must be arrived at through logic and experience as well as divine revelations which appear in many more places than the Bible, and that too can be proved.

I study history more and more to try and understand how things came to be what they are in this young millenium.

Please show your proofs of divine revelations.

Do not forget though that hypnotism, trance and a few substances can give an individual or a group the absolute certainty of what they are experiencing.

There are thousands of such cases which are well documented by social scientists, ethnologists and even theologians.

In the Iranian revolution of 1979, all the people in Teheran saw Khomeiny's face in the sky. It certainly was a divine revelation !

Every day, the police and courts see how difficult to take what "witness" have seen and heard at face's value.

So, please, give us some evidence.

But no evidence like 9/11 was a conspiracy by the government or the genocide in the concentrations camps was a Jewish forgery.

I do not want to hurt your feelings and beliefs though.

I have no beef with beliefs. As long as they do not aim at a promotion as "truths".
Then, this unjustified promotion makes them reach their Peter's level of incompetence.

I don't mean Steinway, of course.

Rvaga,

I'm curious about your statement above, your interest in social manipulation via psychology (or is your interest more in productivity i.e., Taylor, Hawthorne Electric experiment, OK I'll include Maslow, etc.).

Could you explain what you mean by
"social manipulation via psychology" ?

Re: "straw men",

Methinks LP doth protest too much.

Based on this, then, is it safe to assume, Mr. Burton, that you support civil marriage for homosexuals?

We've been there, done that, and all have T-shirts.

Homosexuality can be a rancorous discussion, and I'd just as soon not go there. If ya'll want to discuss it, let me tactfully suggest starting a thread of its' own.

Only among those who choose to impose their moral condemnations on others and want the government to act on their behalf. For those who do not, it is not a rancorous discussion.

People have complained about the tone of the board. Sometimes I understand their viewpoint.

Then again, there are some people you just cannot be nice to.

But you don't see that as what the US is doing in Iraq right now I take it. If you think we've gone there to take over their oil fields and plunder their resources or something then I am not surprised at your reactions toward the war. No, that is NOT our primary reason for being there. If it was we would've done this prior to 9/11. I simply do not see why this is so hard to understand. On the contrary, I take your statement seriously and at face value. You are against the taking of all human life. I merely proposed a scenario: if someone were to say to you that if you do nothing, 1,000 people will die. If on the other hand you choose action #1, 100 people will die. What would you choose? You cannot say you will choose neither because that in itself is a choice, and 1,000 people will die. Ugly situation to be in? You bet. But life is not television that you can just turn off and walk away from. Every choice and action has consequences. Again, I differ with your statement. For proof I offer this: if you watch news coverage from any channel (even just news pool TV cameras mounted on rooftops in Baghdad) or even Al Jezeera you will see Iraqis driving around town and going about their business. They haven't fled Baghdad. It is as if they know we're not indiscriminantly bombing, isn't it? They see the very precise strikes against military targets. If you see the masses of people clustered around our troops giving out water and food because Saddam has used clean water and food as weapons against his own people you will see they don't seem to be afraid of us. If you see civilians lined up on the streets watching us as we roll towards Baghdad, many giving us the V and thubs-up it doesn't appear that they are afraid of us. (The thumbs-up amuses me because I understand that in Iraq that is asign of disrespect). But in any event they aren't afraid. If anything, they are cautious and wary because they may yet not be convinced that we won't pull out and leave them to Saddam's retribution and revenge, and that I can understand. A truer statement has not been spoken. I agree 100%. Again, I believe this war is about the elimination of terrorists and those who support terrorism first and foremost. You do not. I don't know what will get either of us to change our minds except possibly some big event that flies in the face of our beliefs.

SECURITY vs COMPASSION.

No dialogue, no hope.

Ah, my friend...but what do we do when dialogue fails?

What do we do ?

First we take Baghdad.
Then we free the Iraki people.
Then we make it clear that promoting hatred for America will have consequences.
Then we put an end to that unending conflict in Palestinia/Israel.

Then, then, we take some vacation and concentrate on music.

Or, perhaps, Only among those who choose to impose their lack of morals on others and want the government to act on tehir behalf.

Two viewpoints on the same matter with about the same amount of contempt for the other view. That's what makes the discussion rancorous.

btw I don't have dog in this fight. I'm merely pointing out that there can be a diversity of viewpoints rather than making a short-sighted divisive comment....for a change.

A few points:

Rush Limbaugh became the leader of the pack when he stood up and said, I will not take the jeers of the liberal establishment without retaliating. And many others followed suit. We who had been made to feel that our loyalty to our homes, families, God and country were all suspect and worthy of jeering stood up and began to throw mud back ourselves. And most liberal spokesmen are easy targets. What began as an insurrection against social engineering and all the rest of their new-speak has become an open battle for the future of intellectual life in this country and throughout the world. Communism, scoialism, Gramschianism, etc. are all discredited, whereas rugged individualism, taking initiative, freedom to be, do, think and act within limited easily understood rules of conduct are all ideas that are in the ascendancy and have been since the early 80's.

To answer you, conservatives are jeering and MORE back at liberals. We aren't taking it anymore. We want our country, our homes and our lives back, and we want our philosophy and view of the world to triumph over the traditional liberal model.

Concerning "straw men." If you deny that Larry's list of Leftist philosophies are not believed by anybody then yes we are both setting up straw men and this discussion is more than pointless. Unfortunately it is possible to find whole bookshelves in Borders, Barnes & Noble and just about every university bookstore full of many books on these philosophies. I trust these were written and published by somebody. There are countless professors "teaching" this stuff too. These are not straw men, or women. They make a living pushing these ideas, infecting the brains of the young with their useless poison. Remember I was poisoned too. I went to BERKELEY for God's sake! OK? Don't tell me that conservatives like Larry and I are setting up mere straw men. These are real people who spout these ideas. We are not against the people per se, after all anyone can be deluded. It is the IDEAS that we despise.

I'm going with Jolly on this. If there is anyone who wants to discuss this issue, let's do another thread about it. I have reasonable and compassionate ideas that should satisfy everybody.

Benedict asked me to prove divine revelations. I said, as quoted by benedict: "I am more interested in our origins and in ancient history than in moral law, which if one thinks about it seriously, must be arrived at through logic and experience, as well as divine revelations which appear in many more places than the Bible, and that too can be proved."

Within the present materialist only basis of science, it is impossible to prove that anything anyone comes up with is the result of divine revelation. What I meant to say was that, " divine revelations, or what are claimed to be same, appear in many more places than the Bible, and that too can be proved." And this is easy. Most Christians don't know that the Koran is claimed to be delivered to Mohammed (PBUH), who was supposedly an illiterate, by the Archangel Gabriel. The "creation hymn" that makes up the first part of the book of Genesis is lifted, almost verbatim, from the Enuma Elish of the Sumerians. In fact our version has been abridged. In the original which is far older than our Bible it says, "In the beginning, the GODS created the heavens and the earth."

This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed. But I think it's time to move on.

Then Benedict, we have a nice visit over wine and cheese in a little outside cafe in Paris, and after we have done our part to bring our people together, I will go off and shave a few women......

Trust me.... I'll do my part to improve US/French relations...... :p

David,

Lazy Pianist keeps referring to what I say as "straw men" because he isn't smart enough to debate the points. In fact, he doesn't even understand the meaning of most of them. His interest is not in finding truth, it is in pushing his agenda - a blame America Leftist viewpoint that is riddled with failed ideas and dogma. In my opinion, he has proven himself to be a traitor, anti-american, and not worth the time it takes to rebut. He is, in the purest sense of the word, a fanatic extremist.

I really haven't participated a lot, but read with keen interest the posts in this thread. At least in the last several pages, I have found some very good writing, some very good discussion, civility, and excellent insight into everyone's read on what's happening in our world today.

This thread just might be an example of how people on this forum who at times have diametrically opposing viewpoints can moderate this forum themselves.

Maybe we have all learned a thing or two?