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#870225 - 04/08/03 01:23 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Well, it seems Lazy refuses to state his/her status as a native born American or emigre or even if he/she really lives in the U.S. That is certainly Lazy's prerogative. I will further explain my thoughts and why I was asking.
Quote
In your follow up post, Gryphon, you basically imply (forgive me if I am wrong)that if I were not from the United States, then my views might be suspect.
Well, if you were Muslim that might color your views of the situation, for example. I've noticed a pattern in your writing that leads me to believe you are not native born and raised, that perhaps you've immigrated here from abroad. Or perhaps you've even converted to Islam. I am not asserting you are Muslim, but only that is a possibility. Of course, if you aren't actually an American but are "pretending" to be one here, well then obviously that makes all of your statements suspect because you would be posting here under a false pretense. That's all.


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#870226 - 04/08/03 01:25 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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To put it more succinctly, it means LP trusts Sadaam Hussein, or any other tin pot dictator more than the duly elected President of the U.S.

How can one argue with such logic?

Outside of the insane asylum, that is?


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#870227 - 04/08/03 01:42 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by pique:
that particular liar was beholden to the same special interests every denizen of the white house has been beholden to since reagan's election in 1980. he wouldn't be holding the office otherwise. that's how we got NAFTA.
confused confused Reagan and Clinton owed their elections to the same people confused confused I didn't know that that Ross Perot was the major reason Reagan got elected. wink

Really, I'm ignorant of this. You're talking about whom?


Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as heck...
#870228 - 04/08/03 01:46 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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I don't know if this belongs in this thread or not, but it appears that globalists have plans for reigning in the United States after the war with Iraq. Their weapon: a worldwide tax to punish wealthy (i.e., successful) countries and correct an “unequal distribution of the natural richness.”

In an article in the Paris newspaper Le Monde, Olivier Giscard d'Estaing, president of the Committee of Action for a World Parliament and French section of the European League of Economic Cooperation, calls for an international tax system based on a nation's gross national product.

The article is titled “After the War.” One can read into that a not-so-subtle implication that the president of the United States has dared to defy his betters in France and Germany and led his country into a war just because his countrymen were threatened with weapons of mass destruction. Time to use the tax hammer to take those Americans down a few notches.

Nice. :rolleyes:


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#870229 - 04/08/03 02:35 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Well, it seems Lazy refuses to state his/her status as a native born American or emigre or even if he/she really lives in the U.S. That is certainly Lazy's prerogative.
Geez, Gryphon. I would think that my having stated " I am an American and have been all my life." would have cleared that up.

Quote
I will further explain my thoughts and why I was asking. Well, if you were Muslim that might color your views of the situation, for example. I've noticed a pattern in your writing that leads me to believe you are not native born and raised, that perhaps you've immigrated here from abroad. Or perhaps you've even converted to Islam. I am not asserting you are Muslim, but only that is a possibility. Of course, if you aren't actually an American but are "pretending" to be one here, well then obviously that makes all of your statements suspect because you would be posting here under a false pretense. That's all.
Assuming I were Muslim, why would that make any difference about my ability to make moral judgements about this war? The French are not predominantly Moslem, nor are the Germans, nor the Russians, nor the Chinese. Indeed, most of the major demonstrations against the war have been held in non-Moslem coutries, particularly in the US and Europe.

Your implication, Gryphon, is that a Moslem cannot make an objective analysis of the war because of his religion. If you believe this, one then has to ask if an American can make an objective analysis of this war because of his allegiance to the United States.


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#870230 - 04/08/03 02:49 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
To put it more succinctly, it means LP trusts Sadaam Hussein, or any other tin pot dictator more than the duly elected President of the U.S.

How can one argue with such logic?

Outside of the insane asylum, that is?
Tell me, Jolly...Just when did I say I trust Saddam Hussein?

I find it so very interesting that one's allegiance to one's country can be questioned if one does not support the policies of a President.

Who and when did anyone define an "good" American as one who blindly listens to and supports ANY politician, no matter what position he/she was elected to? To me, a good American is one who approaches ALL politicians with skepticism. And yet, for so many of you, questioning Mr. Bush's motives seems to imply that those of us in opposition to the war are somehow un-American -- or a Jolly puts it, we believe Saddam Hussein but not George Bush.

Why is this? Why do you expect blind loyalty? Just because he has led us into a war? If this is what is expected of the American people, than any President would simply keep us in a perpetual state of war so that those who oppose him can be condemned as un-American.

Tell me, Jolly, did you ever criticize, disagree with or even condemn the policies of Bill Clinton when he was in office? I assume you gave full support to his health care plan early in his adminstration, because to be skeptical about a politician is, according to you, wrong if he is duly elected.

Did you ever raise questions about the timing of his response to the bombing of the embassies in Africa? Ever question his involvement in Kosovo -- and the timing of that?

If you did, based on your logic, one has to wonder whether you are really a true American -- after all, Bill Clinton was duly elected President.

Dissent is not un-American, Jolly. Many people would like it to be. Many people act as if it is. But it is not.

The question of support for this war is not black and white -- it is not a matter of one either supports George Bush or one supports Saddam Hussein. You are too smart to even begin to believe it. Why post it here?


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#870231 - 04/08/03 03:29 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Assuming I were Muslim, why would that make any difference about my ability to make moral judgements about this war?
Quite possibly, absolutely.
Quote
The French are not predominantly Moslem, nor are the Germans, nor the Russians, nor the Chinese.
They don't like us. They aren't pro-Hussein, but they are anti-US.
Quote
Your implication, Gryphon, is that a Moslem cannot make an objective analysis of the war because of his religion.
That could very well be true. But there are other reasons. A good friend of mine was born and raised in Lebanon. He and his family hid in the basement of a bombed-out building for a couple of days until they could escape to the West during one time of war. He grew up with war his entire youth, and to this day it colors his views of guns and "violence." So yes, ones analysis can be colored by lots of things. I wonder if your is.


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#870232 - 04/08/03 03:49 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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LP opined:
Quote
Tell me, Jolly, did you ever criticize, disagree with or even condemn the policies of Bill Clinton when he was in office?
Yep.

But not everything.

And therein lies the difference.

Dissent is certainly an American right. You have that freedom of speech.

But my agenda antennae go off whenever I hear someone, or read someone's work, who never can see the good, but alway harps upon the bad.

And you sir, or madam, have a severe case of Rectimitus Opthalmyalgia, at least when it pertains to Mr. Bush, or the current administration.

You know, the medical condition where one's optic nerve, and anal sphincter become intwined, giving one an eternally %^&%%$ look on life? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

TTFN. :p


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#870233 - 04/08/03 04:10 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Good Lord, don't all you folks have jobs, and lives? laugh :p :rolleyes:

#870234 - 04/08/03 04:16 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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agreed. the intelligence quotient of this discussion is heading rapidly downhill. :rolleyes:


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#870235 - 04/08/03 04:18 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Quote
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Assuming I were Muslim, why would that make any difference about my ability to make moral judgements about this war?
Quite possibly, absolutely.
So, explain to me why being a Moslem makes a difference in one's ability to make a moral judgment? Are they better able to make moral judgements? Less able? Just why is their ability to make a moral judgement any different than your ability to make a moral judgement?

Quote

Quote
The French are not predominantly Moslem, nor are the Germans, nor the Russians, nor the Chinese.
They don't like us. They aren't pro-Hussein, but they are anti-US.
You don't think the French and Germans like Americans? You would go so far as to say you consider the French and Germans anti-American? Even after how closely as we have all worked together on so many things in this world?

Why would you say this? From everything I have heard, they may disagree with us about this war, but they do not dislike us nor are they anti-American.

I really would like to hear your reasoning on why you think two of our closest allies are anti-American.

Quote

[QUOTE]That could very well be true. But there are other reasons. A good friend of mine was born and raised in Lebanon. He and his family hid in the basement of a bombed-out building for a couple of days until they could escape to the West during one time of war. He grew up with war his entire youth, and to this day it colors his views of guns and "violence." So yes, ones analysis can be colored by lots of things. I wonder if your is.
I don't think my question dealt with whether or not an analysis is colored by one's experience. It dealt with whether or not you felt a Moslem could make an "objective" analysis.

Quite clearly everyone's analysis is "colored" by their experiences, their ideology and a variety of other things.

But you did not answer the question as to whether or not you thought a Moslem could make an abbjective analysis of this war. And you totally ignored the question of whether or not an American could make an objective analysis of this war.


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#870236 - 04/08/03 04:23 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by pique:
agreed. the intelligence quotient of this discussion is heading rapidly downhill. :rolleyes:
I agree Pique, the intelligence quotient is going down.

But we may finally be getting to the crux of the matter here -- the gut reaction from some of those who are pro-war. They are getting real close to exhibiting their true colors -- and it has little to do with the war itself and a lot to do with their attitude towards people who think differently than they do.


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----------------------
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Avoid those who have found it.
#870237 - 04/08/03 06:59 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by pique:
agreed. the intelligence quotient of this discussion is heading rapidly downhill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree Pique, the intelligence quotient is going down.
I Agree LP and pigue, but keep up the good work you two smile

Geeez, all who aren't supporting the war a 100% are either muslems or anti-americans, or perhaps jealous... :rolleyes:

#870238 - 04/08/03 07:39 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Quote
Originally posted by pique:
[b]agreed. the intelligence quotient of this discussion is heading rapidly downhill. :rolleyes:
I agree Pique, the intelligence quotient is going down.

But we may finally be getting to the crux of the matter here -- the gut reaction from some of those who are pro-war. They are getting real close to exhibiting their true colors -- and it has little to do with the war itself and a lot to do with their attitude towards people who think differently than they do.[/b]
Hardly. I think those of us who support the war do so for quite clear headed reasons. Those of you who don't have yet to come up with a reason that makes sense, other than you feel that war kills people. Of course war kills people. But war frees people who are slaves also. You seem to be of the opinion that if you asked Saddam nicely enough, he would have turned over his weapons. 12 years didn't do it, they've lost the war and they still won't give in, and you three yellow dog liberals are busy high-fiving each other at what a "good job" you're doing as you smugly try to paint those of us who support war as somehow less educated or less able to reason than you.

Horse crap.

Your politics are bankrupt. Your answers to some pretty direct questions here from several very intelligent people have either gone unanswered, or have evoked a spew of smoke and mirrors and subject changing. LP, you have tried to maneuver around your past comments to make it look like you are merely questioning the policies of the administration, and the war. Only a fool would fall for that little wad.

Why can I say your politics are bankrupt and sleep knowing I have said the truth? Read this:

Jailed Iraqi children run free as marines roll into Baghdad suburbs

Over 150 children were just released from a prison that Saddam and his vile thugs had held them in for 5 years. Small little children!! Why were they in prison? For refusing to join the Youth Ba'ath Party - Saddam's party. Have you bothered to read just what those who *did* join the party have had to do the past two weeks? They have been put out there with guns and ordered to attack the British and American soldiers, and if they don't, their parents will be killed in front of them.

That's reality, folks. You can continue on with your little leftist love fest all you want, but the facts remain that if it weren't for people who think like me and many others on this board, these children would have most likely died there. 150 little children. I don't care what you, Saddam, France, Germany, or anyone else in the world thinks of me - this is an evil group that has been running rampant over the lives of these people, and their intention was to spread their control onto others. If we had not listened to the whining, touchy feely socialist left wingers the first time we went in the problem would have been solved much quicker and easier. As it is, they have had 12 years to get stronger. We could have waited another 12 years I guess, but by then there might not have been any way to stop them from these atrocities.

I go to bed every night feeling quite good about the people who are running things now, and what they have the courage to do. I am proud to see American soldiers brave enough to risk their lives to save these children, and the rest of the Iraqi people. While you sit around complaining as usual, trying to find fault, people with common sense and courage are saving people's lives today. And others with common sense and courage are standing up and cheering them on. Then, there's you three.


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#870239 - 04/08/03 09:20 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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LP disgorged:
Quote
I agree Pique, the intelligence quotient is going down.
Does this mean you'll endeavor to raise our collective IQ, and no longer post? wink


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#870240 - 04/08/03 09:35 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
So, explain to me why being a Moslem makes a difference in one's ability to make a moral judgment?
I said it could. As evidence may I offer Akhbar, the Muslims entering the country to support Saddam by killing Americans and British soldiers, the Muslims clerics of the US who refused to condemn the terrorism of 9/11...shall I go on?
Quote
Just why is their ability to make a moral judgement any different than your ability to make a moral judgement?
I would say we have a different definition of right and wrong.
Quote
You don't think the French and Germans like Americans?
I think they are envious of our power and position and would like nothing better than to see us get our nose bloodied. France and Russia have sold goods to Iraq recently in violation of the UN embargos, and have money at stake in Iraq. And where is Chirac right now?
Quote
I don't think my question dealt with whether or not an analysis is colored by one's experience.
No, *my* question did. I wondered if perhaps you might be something other than a typical soccer-mom or dad born and bred in Madison.

So you were born and bred in America, have lived here all your life, and are not a Muslim. You say that, I accept it. That's good enough for me.


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#870241 - 04/08/03 09:57 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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For the record, I want to set a couple of points straight. pique and LP are just as guilty of my actual assertion as anyone else, and can't hide behind my comment in any kind of moral superiority. Also, I was not impugning the intelligence of the conversation or its participants, as my words were reinterpreted to have meant. Rather, I was only commenting on the ungodly amount of time all of you - have been spending in this rapid-fire death spiral of a debate.

I guess it's become my mantra as of late, but again: slow down, folks. There's a whole world out there. Take the time to not neglect your life, your family, your job, your other obligations and other diversions, just so you can be sure to fire a volley back at Larry, or at LP, within five minutes of his response to you. Get your nose out of the computer once in a while, and into some flower that happens to be blooming near you. Donate some time to a local homeless shelter or food pantry. Cut the grass, do the grocery shopping, or watch the kids, for some family you know who has a spouse serving the war. My goodness, any of these things, and a thousand more, will do far more good than just sitting in front of your computers, constantly arguing and re-arguing the same blessed points.

From previous experience, you all know that none of you enjoy a good heated debate any more than I. But even I don't see the sense in the constant tunnel vision of nine pages of "Did To!" "Did Not!" debate. The conversation has been relatively civil, to everyone's credit - but hasn't really turned over any new ground, has it?

Go play with your kids. Call your parents. Do something - anything - else. Then come back, and argue some more, if you'd like. smile

#870242 - 04/08/03 10:24 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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LP:
Quote
From everything I have heard, they may disagree with us about this war, but they do not dislike us nor are they anti-American.
From Alain Madelin, French politician for 34 years, including service in three French administrations with President Jacques Chirac.

Chirac's decision to stay out of the struggle against Saddam Hussein was in part a pandering to the "anti-American tendencies" of political leftists in France, whom Madelin termed "orphans of Marxism."


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#870243 - 04/08/03 10:30 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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As I think back over the 200-some odd posts in this discussion, the question comes to mind:

Whatever happened to Tony, who started this thread with his drive-by shooting?

Traumatized, and still in therapy? laugh


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#870244 - 04/08/03 10:36 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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And, is this thread coming close to being the longest one yet? I do think it has been one of the most interesting. smile Jodi

#870245 - 04/08/03 10:38 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:

Whatever happened to Tony, who started this thread with his drive-by shooting?

Traumatized, and still in therapy? laugh
Nope, he's just fired off another round.

smile Jodi

#870246 - 04/08/03 10:38 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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6:00am Awoke, had coffee.
9:00am Finally able to function. Posted to group, took shower.
10:30 Drove to the antiques store.
11:00 Worked jigsaw puzzle.
12:00 Ate lunch in the cafe. A lovely salad, then a bowl of chile with sausages in it.
1:00 Worked jigsaw puzzle, chatted with friends.
4:00 Drove into the next town over to meet with lady who is retiring from the video business. Negotiating to buy all her display shelving. Traded her a 3 year old 48" Belarus upright for 12K worth of display shelving.... (hey....*she* made the offer, not me!)
5:00 Went to video store. Posted something to group. Collected money from yesterday.
6:00 Drove back to antique store. Collected money from today.
7:00 Back home. Watched news, checked emails, read webnews.
8:00 posted some more.
10:30 Saw your post. Wrote this.

wink


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#870247 - 04/08/03 10:41 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Quote
Originally posted by jodi:
Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
[b]
Whatever happened to Tony, who started this thread with his drive-by shooting?

Traumatized, and still in therapy? laugh
Nope, he's just fired off another round.

smile Jodi[/b]
It should be noted that Tony is from Houston.....


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#870248 - 04/08/03 10:43 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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OK, smarty pants! :p

#870249 - 04/09/03 12:23 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
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Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
Quote
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
Get your nose...into some flower that happens to be blooming near you.
It snowed here 4" yesterday! [Linked Image]
Quote
Donate some time to a local homeless shelter or food pantry.
My wife and I are responsible for serving food at the rescue mission every month. Been doing it for 3 years. Was there last Sunday.
Quote
Cut the grass
See previous snow comment.
Quote
Go play with your kids
Wish I could, but he's walking around Baghdad with an M16 right now.
Quote
Call your parents.
Going out of town to see them this weekend.

Anything else, dad? laugh


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
#870250 - 04/09/03 12:32 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,485
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member
piqué  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,485
i spent almost the entire day out in the back yard with my dogs. it was a gloriously beautiful spring day, with the wild tulips and the crocuses blooming. talked with two of my best friends on the phone. i read several chapters from two books and worked for a few hours on an essay i've been wanting to get down to work on for ages. brushed the dogs. had supper and went to a lecture at the university with my husband. hung around afterwards and talked with some of the other people who attended. am about to put in my two hours of piano practice.

i'm only on here while checking email, as i get up and do on occasion throughout the day, as that is how i stay in touch with work contacts.

but i do understand how its possible to get the impression that some people here never part their noses from the computer screen. laugh


piqué

now in paperback:
[Linked Image]

Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey
#870251 - 04/09/03 12:35 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Larry  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Isn't freedom a wonderful thing, Pique?

Aren't you glad that men like Gryphon's son have the courage and foresight to be willing to defend it for us?

I sure am. Thanks, Gryphon, for your contribution. And send a salute to your son for me.

Hooah!


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#870252 - 04/09/03 12:42 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
gryphon  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
Thanks Larry. Here's a picture of him just prior to deployment. The hot woman is my wife, Chris! laugh Son's name is Josh.

[Linked Image]


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
#870253 - 04/09/03 12:49 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 973
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member
Lazy Pianist  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 973
Gryphon

We may disagree about the mission your son is on, but you and your wife are rightfully proud.

I pray that this war ends as quickly as possible and that God will protect your son and bring him home safely to both of you.


WMD = Words of Mass Distortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.
#870254 - 04/09/03 12:52 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,759
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member
David Burton  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,759
Coxsackie, New York
Really incredible!

Have read everything since my last post, interesting, amusing, provocative, occasionally funny, often very serious. Perhaps one of the best discussions ever. It is not to come to agreement or change minds necessarily, it is to let off steam, to get exorcized of our interior thoughts and feelings about these times we are living in. Am posting this away from home. Ill be back next week for, oh Im sure that most of you cringe, a much longer response to some points made.

I especially want to thank pique for commenting, hang in there, we arent so far apart on a few things.

To the Top!

PS: Im planning a trip to the Jura region of France for bicycling and hiking during the day, dining and dancing at night, about two weeks, later this year.
Sorry Im not giving up my love for France or the French that easily.

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