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Nobody has to alter his or her own belief structures on this account, but to make false attributions about those of anyone else is, I think, very dishonest in itself. One has to ask, in fact, why would anyone feel the need to do so? Because to find that our heros do not share our conception of God exactly, makes us call this conception into question ourselves? Why should there be any practical meaning attached to their personal religious identities, other than the need to validate ourselves? Huh??
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rvaga,
Yes, it was ponderous.
Will this do? *************************************
However, please recall as I said near the bottom of the last page, I am specifically questioning commonly held assumptions about the personal beliefs of the "Founding Fathers".
I'm not discussing any political strategems they used to get enough signatures on the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill of Rights or for any other reason. I'm also not talking about the beliefs of anybody else in the Colonies or in the US today - much less the conventional categories they might fall into with little reference to faith or observance.
Nobody has to alter his or her own beliefs according to whatever we find out about these Founders. However, to make false attributions about their beliefs, is I think, even more dishonest than mere "spin".
One has to ask, in fact, why would anyone feel the need to do so?
Could it be, that we might feel our own conception of God threatened if we find that our heros' conception of God is different? Why should their personal religious identities make any earthly difference to us, unless we feel the need to validate ourselves through them?
For some reason, nobody besides Shantinik seems willing even to stay on the single topic, of their self-professed religious identity. Looks evasive.
The political thinking of these courageous innovators, stands quite solidly in its own right. We can espouse it or not as we choose, independent of their (or our) religious convictions - exactly, I dare say, as they would have wanted us to do!
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln~
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Ariel, From what I've read in the past particularly "Founding Brothers" by Joseph Ellis, the founding fathers were mostly Deists. They scorned organized religions. Most were raised as Christians (mostly Episcopal). They were highly ethical with virtue of honor, honesty, trustworthiness, courage, patience, industry, simplicity, justice, fidelity, integrity, etc... These values, of course, do not pertain to just "Christians." Here are some quotes by Thomas Jefferson "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 "Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820 "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814 "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802 "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819 Source: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_on_Deism
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One more:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
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While it would be clear from Jefferson's writings throughout his life that he would likely not fit comfortably in Jolly's church, I would caution quoting either from him or any of the Founding Fathers anything written 1805 or later. Their beliefs may or may not have changed, but the discourse around them would have, and in some cases very radically. (I could give you dozens of examples in Quaker discourse, but this is the wrong list.) Those who proposed the 1st Amendment thought they were doing two things set in seeming contrary motion: proclaiming the total separation of church and state (yes, the context surrounding WHY they proposed it at that particular time in history makes that clear), while at the same ensuring that government would be strictly prohibited from interfering in the practice of religion. In both cases, what they feared was Christianity, the only religion in the New World at the time that would have posed a threat in either case. They feared religious (read: Christian) tests for public office (knowing, of course, that under these tests, in many cases they themselves would be disqualified!), and they feared establishment of state religion (read: Christian) under which they themselves would have been outsiders. And that's the point: they may have been "Christian" (even if Jolly's church might not welcome them -- Jolly, I'm still awaiting your reply as you know your own church better than I do , but they saw Christianity (and no other religion) as a threat to the new republic.
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Why, Shant, we would probably even welcome a heretic such as yourself. I'd be glad to help baptize you.
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Originally posted by Jolly: Why, Shant, we would probably even welcome a heretic such as yourself.
I'd be glad to help baptize you. Why, thank you! and I'd probably enjoy it. I am occasionally seen at the local African-American Baptist Church, and my daughter has sung in their women's Gospel choir. Don't think you'd want me as a member, though.
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Originally posted by shantinik:
Those who proposed the 1st Amendment thought they were doing two things set in seeming contrary motion: proclaiming the total separation of church and state (yes, the context surrounding WHY they proposed it at that particular time in history makes that clear), while at the same ensuring that government would be strictly prohibited from interfering in the practice of religion.
Thank you. I suspected as much. I don't understand why "some" here find this either dangerous or offensive.
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
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Originally posted by shantinik: Originally posted by Jolly: [b]Why, Shant, we would probably even welcome a heretic such as yourself. I'd be glad to help baptize you. Why, thank you! and I'd probably enjoy it. [/b]Jolly, Please take pictures -- preferably on video... Ken
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Hey, one church's water is as good as another's. (I've bathed in the Ganges, too. )
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Renauda, Your Archy post was fantastic!
Musically, Benjamin Francis http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis (I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?) ---------- Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach: "Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."
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I do hope everyone involved realizes one very, very important fact: The more sin the sinner has, the longer the time of immersion. Remember, if you ain't dunked, your're sunk!
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Originally posted by Jolly: The more sin the sinner has, the longer the time of immersion. Uh oh... this is bad news for me... But, I have beat just about everyone I've ever competed against for under-water breath-holding...
Musically, Benjamin Francis http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis (I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?) ---------- Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach: "Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."
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Originally posted by Jolly: Why, Shant, we would probably even welcome a heretic such as yourself.
I'd be glad to help baptize you. I would LOVE to see the Founding Fathers' applications for membership in Jolly's church! Actually, what I'd REALLY love to see are the looks on the faces of the membership committee! :p (and some folks thought problems were caused when gay people joined their church -- that would be rather lightweight stuff compared to this! )
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Thanks Peggy. The voice of Thomas Jefferson speaks for me. I was befuddled; wondering what to say to the above hair splitting discussion, wondering how I could convey a sense of sense, a sense of what God - him or herself would hope to communicate. I am grateful Jefferson's thoughts were preserved.
I've always been uncomfortable discussing religious viewpoints. I am not a woman of faith by an means but undeniably admit the existence and power of God. I am so uncomfortable when people attempt to articulate what God is in terms of their own experience and language. I think,,, "Don't they know that God in his infinite wisdom (to use a church term) can communicate with the savage, the intellectual, the Asian, the African and the Baptist?"
The wisdom of our forefathers who have allowed us Freedom OF Religion was stupendous.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Originally posted by Jolly: The more sin the sinner has, the longer the time of immersion.
I'm afraid I would need scuba gear.
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Originally posted by JBryan: Originally posted by Jolly: [b] The more sin the sinner has, the longer the time of immersion. I'm afraid I would need scuba gear.[/b] That makes two of us. :p
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
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The name Jolly the Baptist is forever etched in my brain.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Peggy: Thanks for all the info about the Founding Fathers' religion and great quotes from Jefferson from your wide reading. I'm starting to get interested in this Bible he wrote himself. It must have been pretty short with all the parts of the original he left out - or perhaps he added his own "revelations"? I see you weren't kidding when you said you liked history. You sure are well-read! Did this begin before or after you managed at Barnes & Noble? I worked in two bookstores and they were among my favorite (regular) jobs - but I did find it hard to hold onto much from my paycheck by the time all my discounted purchases were subtracted! You too? Shantinik: What happened in 1805? JBryan and Renauda outdoing each other on the scuba diving...: Maybe that's why Judaism has a "mikve" for symbolic cleansing and ceremonies - a small swimming pool! Jolly warned us: Remember, if you ain't dunked, your're sunk! How about, "If you ain't dunked, you're skunked!" Still waiting to hear whether the Founding Fathers were really Christians according to your actual religious definition of "Christian" :p ....rather than just in terms of what might be called their cultural tradition? I thought one of the main things - some would say THE main thing - distinguishing Christianity from other religions is its emphasis on the absolute primacy of Faith over all else. As opposed say, to good deeds or even just duties to perform certain actions - such as, for Muslims, the Pilgrimage to Mecca and fasting at Ramadan. Because if it hangs on specific articles of faith, well then, I think you may have a serious problem. Ariel
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln~
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A neat tidbit: Political Science professors at the University of Houston, curious about who influenced the founders, gathered 15,000 quotes made by them. The effort took over ten years. They reduced the number to those that had a significant impact on the founding fathers and the result was 3,154 quotes. They determined that the Bible was quoted far more than any other source. Thirty-four percent of all quotes were from the Bible, and another 60% of the quotes were from men who were using the Bible to make their point. God's word was important to the nation's founders.
On another note, there is a letter written by Washington's daughter after his death, that proclaims her father as Christian. I'm trying to find it, and will post it when I do.
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