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Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867316
07/09/03 06:28 PM
07/09/03 06:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
And paying cash for everything? Almost. I, like lots of other people, have a mortgage, but I think I'll be through it in a couple of years, give or take a month, or two. Other, than that, yep, it's C.O.B (cash on barrelhead). Do I make sacrifices for that? - durn 'tootin I do - and it's worth every one.
We share a similar philosophy on this. I payout my credit balances to $0.00 on 30th of every month after calling the 1-800 number on the cards. Have never applied for credit but they keep raising my limits in the hope they'll some day snag me in their noose. The only thing outstanding is, like yours, a mortgage payment- otherwise everything on the property is bought and paid for long ago.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Piano & Music Accessories
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867317
07/09/03 07:47 PM
07/09/03 07:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 200
Albany, OR
Ringer Offline
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Ringer  Offline
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Posts: 200
Albany, OR
Being a R&D engineeer myself, this kind of stuff really drives me bonkers and I agree wholeheartedly with the debt issue.

I can understand if companies want to outsource to save money; though the laid-off workers deserve a solid opportunity to gain other employment.

One bipartisan idea I have really enjoyed that came from the Republican Congress and Pres. Clinton was the education tax credits. The credits are very generous and help with the costs of education, which can help when getting trained for a first, second, or whatever job.

Here's an idea to toss out. How about greater tax incentives when using 401(k) money to get training for a different position? Or requiring severance packages to include money that can only be used for educational courses in public universities?

Certainly not every industry is doing badly; the health-care folks are dying for workers - and I don't think the sick people are going to move to India. It seems the get an education-get a job system of the past is over; these days it's a education-job-education-job... type cycle.


"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said, `I drank what?'"

Ringer
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867318
07/09/03 11:31 PM
07/09/03 11:31 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
ChickGrand Offline
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Midwest U.S.
Quote
Originally posted by Ringer:
...the health-care folks are dying for workers - and I don't think the sick people are going to move to India. It seems the get an education-get a job system of the past is over; these days it's a education-job-education-job... type cycle.
I think that's a good characterization. The problem resolves to the tough task of choosing training that proves to be both practical and rewarding for John Doe Phase 5. Too often "hot" fields don't remain such for long.

RE: health care--I'm amazed at the number of health care professionals I know in my immediate neighborhood and larger community who are concurrently with their jobs educating themselves in graduate programs on the side to get OUT of health care, inspite of the high demand and competitive salaries with hefty sign-on bonuses. The industry can't keep the ones it's got much less fill the growing vacancies caused by a graying population. The only other common vacancies in high numbers locally are listings for experienced OTR long-haul truckers. Maybe that'd be a good field--hauling all that research equipment to the docks for export to Asia and hauling our cheap Chinese trinkets back inland.

Then, of course, there's always law and mortuary work providing a steady need.

What do you want to be when you grow up, America?

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867319
07/09/03 11:56 PM
07/09/03 11:56 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
ChickGrand Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Ringer:
Here's an idea to toss out. How about greater tax incentives when using 401(k) money to get training for a different position? Or requiring severance packages to include money that can only be used for educational courses in public universities?
I think both of these ideas merit serious consideration.

The freedom we allow business to come and go abroad unfetterd does incur some social cost. While we may idealize free and private enterprise, policies that enhance that freedom may permit or even induce some instability into the economic equation--like lost jobs and decreased revenues of all kinds as a result.

I think it's perhaps appropriate to consider both of your ideas as a hand-in-hand approach, each the worker and the employer bearing a portion of the responsibility for the social cost, and each contributing to the overall preservation of our economic status quo, for the sake of both the affected individual and society collectively.

Unemployment statistics for "old Europe" are dismal. (Ours aren't much better on careful analysis.) The number of individuals "on the dole" due to systemic unemployment in most other nations of the "western world" would shock even the most tax-and-redistribute-happy American.

That's a road I don't want to see this country go further along. But it's a road in the middle of nowhere that we find ourselves on. It's rather like the driver who wakens from sleep to find he's missed his exit and isn't quite sure where he's at. I think we've topped an unknown hill on that unknown road when American industry globalized and moved abroad leaving us passengers to look for milemarkers and maps and a flashlight.

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867320
07/10/03 12:30 AM
07/10/03 12:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 200
Albany, OR
Ringer Offline
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Ringer  Offline
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Albany, OR
Well chickgrand,

Here's one other factor to help economic growth; it may help if Texas can beat Oklahoma this fall in Dallas wink

From a Texas-Ex!


"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said, `I drank what?'"

Ringer
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867321
07/10/03 01:18 AM
07/10/03 01:18 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
ChickGrand Offline
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Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
Quote
Originally posted by Ringer:
Well chickgrand,

Here's one other factor to help economic growth; it may help if Texas can beat Oklahoma this fall in Dallas wink
Never bothers me in the least when they do. It's only a game win or lose and one far too much money gets spent on around here when so much else is lacking that might generate real economic growth.

And besides, I'm an ex-Texan myself!

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867322
07/10/03 12:14 PM
07/10/03 12:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
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shantinik Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Oh, stop it Shant. There were so many loopholes and tax dodges back then (many eliminated by Reagan) that it was pretty easy to get your AGI down (at least that's what I understand, I was pretty young then).
So which is it -- in 1964 tax rates were too high and caused high unemployment and high rates of inflation (NOT!), or the tax rates really weren't so high, and that caused high unemployment and high rates of inflation (NOT!), or the tax rates really weren't so high, and the so-called high employment and high rates of inflation were non-existent? :rolleyes:

JBryan makes for a great "revisionist" historian; but then I guess that makes you (on this stuff) a "revisionist-revisionist" historian. Well, at least you guys disagree!

So let's take one from the Dems. and one from the Reps. -- 77% tax rate AND close all the loopholes! (though I do like the 99:1 income spread better, even though I'm sure that will cause the Ken Lays of the world great heartburn...don't worry though, under such circumstances, given the choice of "America - love it or leave it", they'll leave. )

(and that's just fine with me. cool )

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867323
07/10/03 01:10 PM
07/10/03 01:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
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Since we are on the subject of revisionism, instead of cherry picking your statistics from a time when the economy was in the midst of a post war boom and tax rates had just been massively cut (from levels you would be happy with), fast forward to 1978 - 1980 time frame and quote us inflation and interest rates. Then go ahead four to six years after another massive tax cut and show us where inflation and interest rates were headed then.

The economy was struggling hard enough with 70% tax rates with a tax code littered with loop holes (there was actually a tax advantage to owning a race horse at the end of the '70s) but now you want even higher tax rates with no loop holes. Our economy would head straight into the dumper as there would no longer be any incentive to create wealth (that means jobs as well).


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867324
07/10/03 01:29 PM
07/10/03 01:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
S
shantinik Offline
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Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
1964 post-war BOOM? what are you talking about? Which WAR are you are talking about? the Korean? (the Vietnam boom didn't happen til later.)

But to take your point and Gryphon's -- either tax rates were high in the late 1970s or they weren't. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Gryphon says that because of all the loopholes they were low. Fine. Low taxes, high unemployment, high inflation. Or do you want to argue that taxes were high?

Fast forward to 2002. Lowest tax rate in 50 years. Now what exactly was the unemployment rate in 2002?

But as I already said, history shows this to be almost wholly irrelevant. Low taxes, high taxes -- if you want jobs, make wars (when you use the equipment, it is immediately obsolete), or, better, build obsolete equipment - then you don't even have to bother to use it. Doubt that much of this matters much anymore though. If you want jobs, low taxes or high taxes won't matter in the least -- think Wal-Mart/McDonalds/Burger King -- the engines of the economy. Whether there are low taxes or high taxes, there will be more Wal-Marts. And it also doesn't matter: Wal-Mart means fewer U.S. industrial jobs, and more imports from China; McDonald's means more beef from Guatemala.

But if Wal-Mart wants to service our ant colonies living in cheap motels up and down the I-5 corridor, that's fine with me. Don't want to pay for their workers' health care and want to feed at the public trough for it? Fine with me too! Just make their execs pay for it. Big time. No loopholes. They don't like it? Let 'em go move to their "global purchasing office" (they can sell their kids first, to make the moving easier. cool )

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867325
07/10/03 01:53 PM
07/10/03 01:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:
1964 post-war BOOM? what are you talking about? Which WAR are you are talking about? the Korean? (the Vietnam boom didn't happen til later.)
WWII. The economy boomed all through the '50s and early '60s. That is fairly common knowledge. Where were you?

Quote
But to take your point and Gryphon's -- either tax rates were high in the late 1970s or they weren't. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Gryphon says that because of all the loopholes they were low. Fine. Low taxes, high unemployment, high inflation. Or do you want to argue that taxes were high?
Don't conflate my point and Gryphon's. I believe 70% was always too high. It's just that other economic variables may make them more tolerable at certain times more than others but 70% is always too high

Quote
Fast forward to 2002. Lowest tax rate in 50 years. Now what exactly was the unemployment rate in 2002?
Cherry picking again. Unemployment ticked up following the dot com bust but had been at its lowest in a very long time and continues to be lower than most any point during the last century. Mostly due to economic growth fueled by tax cuts.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867326
07/10/03 02:12 PM
07/10/03 02:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:
Gryphon says that because of all the loopholes they were low.
Why are you acting obtuse? Tax rates were high, way high. If you earned more than the average bear and you didn't want the government to take 70% of your income (or whatever tax bracket you were in) you were forced to engage in tax dodges. If you just wanted to stick your money in the bank and save it for your old age or your children, the government taxed it away.

Progressive taxes are evil and unfair. Whatever tax rate we require, it should be applied equally to everybody. I have no problem with a baseline of $12K or $15K where taxes start.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867327
07/10/03 02:50 PM
07/10/03 02:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
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Renauda Offline
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Hold on for a moment you are too fixed on the taxation issue- stand back for a second and look around and see what is happening. Shantinik is making a valid point here that is worth taking the time to think about.

How I understand it he is saying is that the US g'ovt is providing the corporate elites with low tax rates so that they reinvest back into the domestic economy to create jobs and spur on economic growth. They are however creating very low paying jobs (Wal-Mart) and setting up shop outside of the country. They are creating a working class in the service sector without providing any social benefit (i.e health care insurance) and placing the burden of looking after their employees back on the state. They are effect getting it both ways and ripping off the society. They are certainly not putting anything back in other than feeding the machine of consumption and providing menial jobs at poverty wages.

Really all Shant is saying is: Fine, if that's how these charcters want it, then they too can relocate their own butts offshore and stop exploiting the American taxpayer and public in general. I see nothing wrong with this argument. The same is happening up here its just that no one wants to address the issue. Henry Ford for all his faults, at least made sure that his workers were well paid and by doing so helped to foster the American economic boom of the early early 20th Century. Others scrambled to imitate the formula for success. Tell me what kind of economic boom will teh Wal-Mart economy foster? As it is its employees are forced to shop at Sally Ann and buy their groceries at the local Food Banks.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867328
07/10/03 02:58 PM
07/10/03 02:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
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I am not unsympathetic to Shantinik's argument regarding corporate behavior. But let us deal with that through regulation and not use the sledgehammer of taxation that hits corporate good guy and bad guy alike. Remember, two thirds of the job creation in this country is from small businesses who will also benefit from tax cuts. I am all for anything that gets our money out of the hands of government (which can waste money more foolishly then I could ever possibly imagine) and back into the private sector. That does not mean that I am in favor of corporations giving their employees, and the rest of us, the finger.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867329
07/10/03 03:02 PM
07/10/03 03:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Just curious, do you ever shop at Walmart, Shantinik?


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867330
07/10/03 03:07 PM
07/10/03 03:07 PM
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Renauda Offline
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JBryan: No, I didn't think you to be that naive about what is really happening out there. But they are giving everyone the finger, heavy taxation and/or enforced labour legislation are the few tools at the public's disposal to deal with this. There is also expropriation...Now there's a slogan: 99:1 and Expropriate the Expropriators! cool


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867331
07/10/03 03:37 PM
07/10/03 03:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
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One could concoct any number of ways of dealing with these corporate villains short of bleeding our economy white of precious investment capital to enable more government spending. Why not just rake it all up into a pile and set a match to it. At least we would not have as many multi-million dollar studies to figure out why rats grow legs or some such nonsense. :p


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867332
07/10/03 03:45 PM
07/10/03 03:45 PM
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Renauda Offline
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I didn't mean expropriation with compensation so we can dispense with government funded feasibility studies. :p :p


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867333
07/10/03 03:58 PM
07/10/03 03:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
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shantinik Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Just curious, do you ever shop at Walmart, Shantinik?
Never, in my entire life. But I have been in Walmart, once. In Yakima, Washington, working for the State Board of Health. Cherry farmers were requiring cherry pickers to (illegally) live on site, without potable water, or shelter, or any place to wash the chemical poisons off -- and I was staked out at Walmart to find out what kinds of tents pickers were buying, and to discover just how far from meeting minimal levels of health and safety these tents actually were. (this was not ancient history - try 1998). (don't get me started on this one....I don't eat Washington State cherries either, though I LOVE those from Oregon... mad )

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867334
07/10/03 04:01 PM
07/10/03 04:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
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shantinik Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Renauda:
JBryan: No, I didn't think you to be that naive about what is really happening out there. But they are giving everyone the finger, heavy taxation and/or enforced labour legislation are the few tools at the public's disposal to deal with this. There is also expropriation...Now there's a slogan: 99:1 and Expropriate the Expropriators! cool
I like it -- Derick is still working on the lyrics. And if they can't live on the 99, I say tough, let 'em set up their shanties by the global purchasing office. I bet they'll even get a discount! And why import Asian doctors to be treated in the U.S., when they can go right to the source? Oh, yes, their "precious investment capital" -- well, they'll continue to open Wal-Marts (and if they have to pay for their employees' health insurance, it will be a HUGE spur to the economy, and drive down state budgets and taxes smile ), but maybe they'll be able to purchase a few fewer Pakistani 6-year-olds, so they can teach their own kids to do piecework. cool

Re: Walmart & McDonalds look forward to new wave of high-tech workers: #867335
07/10/03 04:02 PM
07/10/03 04:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
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Okay, just checking. I don't either. But apparently most of the American public has no qualms about the company.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
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