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#862919 - 10/22/04 10:01 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Oct 2004
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The 89th Key Offline
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Northern Virginia
Phlebas, believe it or not, I have a sense of humor, in fact I usually have TOO much of a sense of humor.

But when debating politics, I let repressed serious side come out to present facts and opinion...again, Phlebas, are you not going to answer my original question, hundreds of posts ago?

Everyone, please message Phlebas and get him to answer!! Everyone on the count of 3.... thumb

1......2..........3


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
Piano & Music Accessories
#862920 - 10/22/04 10:07 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Jan 2003
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Phlebas Offline
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New York City
Quote
Originally posted by Larry:
[b]dont let the door hit you on the way out.

89th, most people here will tell you that I am not one to mince words when doing battle with a democrat liberal. So many will find some irony in my telling you to temper your comments a bit.....

I agree with a lot of what you say, and you have a fire in you for your values that I admire - but you need to be a little more selective with the "don't let the door hit you" stuff. Pique may be a political neophyte standing on the far shadows of the edge of reality in her views, but she's one of our friends. We don't want the door to hit her. Save those sorts of remarks for those who truly deserve it, or you'll end up with everyone telling *you* to hit the door. That would be a shame. [/b]
Frank defending Pique? And I thought the Red Sox winning the pennant was a sign heck froze over.

89th,

Take Frank's advice. Look at how long some of the members here have been around, and have a little more respect - with the exception of me because I could care less what you say to or about me, and what you think.

Read some of what these people have posted. Larry, Apple, Jolly, Pique, Kathyk, and many others, not because they've been around here for a while, but because they contribute thoughtful posts here. You, on the other hand, have not. You fail to understand a number of things: 1) People here have been debating these same issues here for a long time, 2)We don't always agree, but we overall like each other and treat each other with respect - something you have not done - and we do not appreciate newbies (especially ill-reared ones like yourself) treating us here in an insulting manner, 3) We don't discuss these issues in a one dimentional manner like it's a game. We have real lives, and the issues we talk about have profound influences on our lives.

#862921 - 10/22/04 10:08 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Oct 2004
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The 89th Key Offline
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I appreciate any sympathetic (or empathetic) pieces of advice given to me, I haven't really done this "forum" thing before...

But I am not sure what exactly I am doing "wrong"?

If someone is trying to make a point but distracs from the subject or makes a shallow remark, I am just trying to keep the discussion relevant and intelligent.

There have been some great posts on here, but there also have been just as many personal attacks against me for no reason. You dont win debates with cheap shots and avoiding the question...I have tried to keep all my posts on topic and legitimate.

Lunch time!


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862922 - 10/22/04 10:13 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Eusebius Offline
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Larry,

Actually, he does not have a point. Allow me to offer proof:

Posted by 89th:

Quote
Homosexuals say: "I cant help that I love someone of the same sex."

Polygamists say: "I cant help loving more than one person, let us get married too!!!"

Incesters say: "I cant help that I love someone that is related to me, let us marry too!"
Now, I don't know if this young man was so enterprising as to go and fetch a homosexual, polygamist, and incest practictioner to collect these quotes, but I strongly suspect that he has instead offered his own idea of what these people would say. Therein lies the problem. He has inserted imaginary words into imaginary mouths to prove a point, albeit a tenuous one. But the quotes themselves are inaccurate. I know many homosexuals, and I think they would say:

"I can't help that I was born predisposed to want to have sex with people of the same sex."

Hmm.

How would that square with our other two imaginary friends? To keep the structure parallel (and hence to prove any kind of point) they would have to say things like the following:

Polygamist: "I can't help that I was born predisposed to want to have sex with many people."

Incester (is that a word?): "I can't help that I was born predisposed to want to have sex with my family."

Let's talk about the polygamist. His above sentiment probably applies to anyone and everyone of any species. Indeed, we see polygamy of sorts in most marriages even in this country, with husbands and wives cheating on one another more and more frequently. Because polygamy is not a culturally approved institution in the U.S., these situations usually end nastily, with arguments, violence and divorces. I don't see that changing any time soon.

More and more frequently, we see "serial monogamy," the practice of taking many spouses sequentially, one after the other. Is this not also a sort of polygamy?

The only places where polygamy, in its truest form, really thrives are those cultures which use it as an adaptive tool. I mentioned Nepal as an example earler.

There's no reason to fear polygamy because it's already upon us, albeit in maladaptive forms. If consenting adults wanted to enter the traditional form, I'd say more power to them.

And now for Mr. Incest...well, what's the point in restating what others have said? I can only repeat that it is one of the reddest herrings I've seen in some time.


"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." - Santayana
#862923 - 10/22/04 10:14 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Nunatax Offline
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Belgium
What I'm saying is that I already gave an answer to the polygamy part. If you had read that (it's a few pages back...) then you would not have asked that question (normally).

Be careful 89th key. Almost a year ago I made the exact same mistake you are making now.
Take a break but stick around, it helps, believe me, I know. And an apology here and there would be fitting.

In short, take Apple's advice :
Put on a smiley face, go take a big break, then come back and write a report on what you have written.


Some can tell you to go to heck in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan
#862924 - 10/22/04 10:18 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Aug 2004
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markjpcs Offline
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Wisconsin
Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Do you have any idea how many doors are going to open if you dont want to deny rights to any citizen?
Do you realize what you are saying?

Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
There is chaos-free, and there is civilized-free.

CHAOS-FREE: you are allowed to do anything you want, you shouldn't be repressed by any government in anyway

CIVILIZED-FREE: There are laws that might offend a few people, but it is for the better good of society, the long term.
You sound like a socialist.

What rights do you suggest we disallow that will ensure no chaos? Do you really believe that gay marriage is a sign of chaos?

Laws to prevent a citizen from denying the rights of other citizens are already in place such as murder, theft, etc. It would be chaos if those laws did not exist. But to equate gay marriage with chaos is a major stretch.

#862925 - 10/22/04 10:33 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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The 89th Key Offline
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Its easy, if you allow gay marriage, you will open the door for so many other "rights", thus the path down to chaos has commenced.

Ill be back later


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862926 - 10/22/04 10:43 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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It's not a question of "allowing" anything. You are advocating the denial of a very basic civil right.

Just because a door opens does not mean that the domino effect will automatically take place.

#862927 - 10/22/04 10:44 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Kind of funny how a solar eclipse is debating with a planetary nebula! laugh

#862928 - 10/22/04 10:48 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Improviso Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
...you will open the door for so many other "rights", thus the path down to chaos has commenced.
It's already here 89...

These are the kinds of doors you're talking about. Some activist lawyer thinks he can sue the President with a whale as his client.

And the funny part is the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said, "it saw no reason why animals should not be allowed to sue but said they had not yet been granted that right."

Give me a break!


Court Says Whales, Dolphins Cannot Sue Bush
Wed 20 October, 2004 20:24

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The world's whales, porpoises and dolphins have no standing to sue President Bush over the U.S. Navy's use of sonar equipment that harms marine mammals, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.

A three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, widely considered one of the most liberal and activist in the country, said it saw no reason why animals should not be allowed to sue but said they had not yet been granted that right.

"If Congress and the President intended to take the extraordinary step of authorizing animals as well as people and legal entities to sue they could and should have said so plainly," Judge William A. Fletcher wrote in an 18-page opinion for the panel.

The lawsuit was brought against Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on behalf The Cetacean Community -- defined as the world's whales, porpoises and dolphins -- by their self-appointed lawyer, marine mammal activist Lanny Sinkin.

Sinkin claimed in the lawsuit that the U.S. Navy had violated the Endangered Species Act with its use of long range, low frequency sonar that can cause tissue damage and other injuries to marine mammals.

Sinkin could not be reached for comment on the 9th Circuit's decision, which upheld a lower court ruling.

#862929 - 10/22/04 10:52 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Improv.....what a great imagination you have! You really should be writing humor for a living. Great stuff thumb

That wasn't real right? Please tell me it was fake.

Proud time to be a lawyer.

#862930 - 10/22/04 11:00 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Improviso Offline
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That was real...

Here's the link: Link

#862931 - 10/22/04 11:55 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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The 89th Key Offline
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Nunatax and apple have both advised me to calm down, apologize, etc.

So, I will take their advice because I truly do not want to offend anyone permanently here...I am a huge piano fan (among other things), and I enjoy a good exchange of ideas, so considering I hope to chat along with you fellows for a long time, regarding a plethora of topics:

I apologize if I have offended anyone on a personal level. My goal was to have a hearty debate about political issues, and in that process I am notorious to get "energetic" during such debates.

I apologize to Pique and Phlebas for targeting them in my posts, specifically.

The reason for any of my "aggressive" or personal comments were simply driven from an interest in getting my point across, in which I think you know how I stand on certain issues.

I do not apologize (nor should anyone) for my stance on issues and my core beliefs. There are certain topics I feel very strongly about, and have researched and debated them for many years.

So in the course of my posts, had I offended someone personally, I hope you understand it was in the "heat of the debate".

I also appreciate 'veterans' of the PWF for giving advice and/or supporting my views in the midst of quite an overwhelming liberal defense.

(me) eek -----> :t: :t: :t: :t: :t: (liberal defense)

Just kidding fellas (there was my sense of humor) thumb


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862932 - 10/22/04 11:58 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Matt G. Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Nunatax:
I don't remember when exactly gay marriages became legal here in Belgium, what I do know is that I have noticed no changes at all except that we don't hear much of this futile dispute anymore. For the rest, our economy didn't plummet, we still have enough food to eat, enough water to drink, in fact I can think of no problem whatsoever that arose from the legalisation of gay marriages. And there are certainly no polygamous people demanding a right to get married here...
Somehow, I think this observation by Nunatax has been grossly overlooked. If you want facts, here are facts. This is not a hypothetical, "if X happens, Y is sure to follow" conjecture. This is what has REALLY HAPPENED. Rail against the immorality of the Belgians, or tut-tut yourself to sleep reassured that your prediction will come true eventually, but delusions to the contrary will not change reality.

People talk about opening the floodgates, as it were, as if there were some huge torrent of people who would latch onto this issue as a linchpin in their own attempts to "legitimize" and legalize behaviors that victimize others. The example of Belgium and other countries where gay "marriage" has been instituted has resulted in NO SUCH ONSLAUGHT. The (otherwise non-existent) floodwaters of such behaviors have not swirled and risen to overtake and drown the families that form the fabric of society.

People (men, especially) need to get over their irrational fears of homosexuality as some sort of menace. Homosexual behavior is only appealing to a small minority, and those who have objections to it on religious or other grounds are perfectly free to pursue their avoidance of it. There will always be homosexuals, and there is no shred of proof that allowing homosexuals to "marry" will affect anyone but homosexuals. But for many, homosexuality is a threat to a heaven-only-knows-what something about themselves, and this fear and loathing is rationalized into all kinds of repression, suppression and, yes, even violence.

Myself, I'm tired of the opposition to "marriage" for homosexuals. Fine. Don't let them get "married" to each other. Grant them a single, simple, secular procedure that makes their partnership the full statutory and civil equivalent to "marriage," make such partnership no easier to dissolve than "marriage," limit it to two people, limit it to adults over the age of consent, limit it to people who are not closely related, all just like "marriage." Call it whatever you want.


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
#862933 - 10/22/04 12:01 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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apple* Offline
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Kansas
89 - I'm glad you're here. What you might not realize is that you don't have to pick a fight to find one.. Believe me..... they are ongoing... it's alot of fun .... sometimes too much.... (I certainly have made my share of people mad) but in the end we are here because we are friends. (i hope) smile


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#862934 - 10/22/04 12:02 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Jan 2003
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apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
Quote
Originally posted by markjpcs:
Kind of funny how a solar eclipse is debating with a planetary nebula! laugh
spacy eek


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#862935 - 10/22/04 12:04 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Nov 2001
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fmelliott Offline
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Virginia
Well, back on page 2 I said this would be fun to read with a bag of popcorn in hand to munch. Now the thread has grown to 12 pages!

Nice work 89th!!!

All the Left, it certainly sounded familiar.

It is not physically possible to agree with the left wing. The human mouth cannot say yes, fast enough to agree with all their pronouncements. The list of demands is endless and ever changing. Of course why would you want to agree with it?

#862936 - 10/22/04 12:07 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Freedom Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by apple:
89 - I'm glad you're here. What you might not realize is that you don't have to pick a fight to find one.. Believe me..... they are ongoing... it's alot of fun .... sometimes too much.... (I certainly have made my share of people mad) but in the end we are here because we are friends. (i hope) smile
Wise words.


"A print of the score has everything you need to know about the music, except the essential."
#862937 - 10/22/04 01:03 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Oct 2004
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The 89th Key Offline
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Northern Virginia
...Just making sure this was read, it is important to me that you know how I feel...


Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Nunatax and apple have both advised me to calm down, apologize, etc.

So, I will take their advice because I truly do not want to offend anyone permanently here...I am a huge piano fan (among other things), and I enjoy a good exchange of ideas, so considering I hope to chat along with you fellows for a long time, regarding a plethora of topics:

I apologize if I have offended anyone on a personal level. My goal was to have a hearty debate about political issues, and in that process I am notorious to get "energetic" during such debates.

I apologize to Pique and Phlebas for targeting them in my posts, specifically.

The reason for any of my "aggressive" or personal comments were simply driven from an interest in getting my point across, in which I think you know how I stand on certain issues.

I do not apologize (nor should anyone) for my stance on issues and my core beliefs. There are certain topics I feel very strongly about, and have researched and debated them for many years.

So in the course of my posts, had I offended someone personally, I hope you understand it was in the "heat of the debate".

I also appreciate 'veterans' of the PWF for giving advice and/or supporting my views in the midst of quite an overwhelming liberal defense.

(me) eek -----> :t: :t: :t: :t: :t: (liberal defense)

Just kidding fellas (there was my sense of humor) thumb
...Just making sure that was read, it is important to me that you know how I feel...


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862938 - 10/22/04 01:19 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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snap_apple Offline
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this needs repeating

Quote
People (men, especially) need to get over their irrational fears of homosexuality as some sort of menace. Homosexual behavior is only appealing to a small minority, and those who have objections to it on religious or other grounds are perfectly free to pursue their avoidance of it. There will always be homosexuals, and there is no shred of proof that allowing homosexuals to "marry" will affect anyone but homosexuals. But for many, homosexuality is a threat to a heaven-only-knows-what something about themselves, and this fear and loathing is rationalized into all kinds of repression, suppression and, yes, even violence.
...

How does gay marriage effect a straight married couple? What will happen in your personal relationship if gays start marrying? What will happen if people start marrying their relatives or if multiple people get married? How does this lead to a break down of society? Worst case scenario is you meet a couple and the guy says "hi this is my wife ___ she's also my sister..." or "hi these are my two wives" How is the world going to collapse if these things happen?

by the way 89th you still have not answered my questions regarding the differences between gay marriage being a choice and incest and polygamy being a choice.

#862939 - 10/22/04 02:00 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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The 89th Key Offline
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The 89th Key  Offline
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Northern Virginia
Quote
Originally posted by snap_apple:
by the way 89th you still have not answered my questions regarding the differences between gay marriage being a choice and incest and polygamy being a choice.
It's simple.

Gay people, Polygamists, and Incest(ers) all claim that they cant help who they love (meaning that it is NOT a choice).

Most of them anyway...

Have a good weekend everyone, I'm leaving work now.


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862940 - 10/22/04 02:04 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Eusebius Offline
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It seems simple because you're a simpleton.

Simple as that. :p


"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." - Santayana
#862941 - 10/22/04 02:07 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Matt G. Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Gay people, Polygamists, and Incest(ers) all claim that they cant help who they love (meaning that it is NOT a choice).
<font size=12 color=red>>News Flash!< ....</font>
So do straight people! What exactly is your point?


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
#862942 - 10/22/04 02:31 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Tom--K Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Matt G.:

So do straight people! What exactly is your point?
Maybe that there are a lot of different kinds of abnormal people out there and we should celebrate out abnormalities. laugh

#862943 - 10/22/04 02:33 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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erginc Offline
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erginc  Offline
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At my computer.
Quote
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
Quote
Originally posted by Matt G.:
[b]
So do straight people! What exactly is your point?
Maybe that there are a lot of different kinds of abnormal people out there and we should celebrate our abnormalities. laugh [/b]
Now you're getting the hang of it. Diversity. thumb

#862944 - 10/22/04 02:38 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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snap_apple Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
Quote
Originally posted by snap_apple:
[b] by the way 89th you still have not answered my questions regarding the differences between gay marriage being a choice and incest and polygamy being a choice.
It's simple.

Gay people, Polygamists, and Incest(ers) all claim that they cant help who they love (meaning that it is NOT a choice).

Most of them anyway...

Have a good weekend everyone, I'm leaving work now. [/b]
:rolleyes: --sigh--


Quote
Originally posted by snap_apple:
I would like to know 89th when you chose to be heterosexual rather then homosexual?

If you have ever been in a relationship or had a crush on somebody I would like you to answer me how you came to that decision.

I would like you to tell me how you came to the decision not to be attracted to your family members.

I would like you to tell me how if you or someone you know decided to avoid polygamy.


#862945 - 10/22/04 02:48 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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Tom--K Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by erginc:
Quote
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by Matt G.:
[b]
So do straight people! What exactly is your point?
Maybe that there are a lot of different kinds of abnormal people out there and we should celebrate our abnormalities. laugh [/b]
Now you're getting the hang of it. Diversity. thumb [/b]
Alas, Cupcake I said "celebrate", not "codify into law." frown smile

#862946 - 10/22/04 02:54 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
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erginc Offline
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erginc  Offline
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At my computer.
I said getting...not got. :rolleyes:

#862947 - 10/22/04 03:03 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,400
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member
The 89th Key  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,400
Northern Virginia
Quote
Originally posted by Matt G.:
<font size=12 color=red>>News Flash!< ....</font>
So do straight people! What exactly is your point?
So that means you will allow any type of marriage then, correct?


-The 89th Key [Linked Image]

[Linked Image] www.thecollegecritic.com [Linked Image]
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---
#862948 - 10/22/04 03:07 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,789
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Matt G.  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,789
Plainfield, IL
Answer the question, and don't put words in my mouth.


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
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