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You are welcome to believe in whatever you want, even in the toothfairy or Tammy Faye for all I care, but if you are really so insecure about those millions of other folks inside your tent (including those Christian founding fathers), then you can darn well move.

Jolly and gryphon,
What do you preach on forgiveness. Isn't God all forgiving? Do you believe Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc... Good loving souls will go to heck?
I was raised RC and was never taught that.
justme

Shant wrote:

Be careful, you'll lose your quaker temper.

A. In case you haven't noticed, most people do not use insecure to describe me. And...

B. Whose tent? Yours, or mine?

No temper here -- I meant it honestly and sincerely. If you can't see that there are millions and millions of Christians who have described themselves as such on the other side of your cut-off point for hundreds of years, including many if not most of our nations founders, or alternatively, you are so insecure as to cause you to dismiss them out of hand, I think you might find greater happiness elsewhere. Those who cohabit the tent with you now are not going away. Those who used to inhabit the tent can't be gotten rid of by you even if you exorcise them.

This obviously causes you great consternation.

For what it's worth, the Catholic position is that if one leads a blameless (not necessarily sinless,) life according to the dictates of natural reason, and if one never had the opportunity of hearing the message of Jesus Christ one might, (MIGHT,) because of the boundlessness of God's mercy and the Invincible Ignorance of the individual receive salvation.

It's that Catholic way of saying--God, not the Church is the final arbiter of salvation. Nothing more.

Thank you, TomK, this is what I believe. I was curious about what Jolly and gryphon believe.
justme

All this talk about tents. Reminds me of that book the Red Tent. I can picture some of you guys in there with all the women. teheeeheeee......

justme, to answer your question (what I believe, I thought I've answered that more than once) but yes, God is the final arbiter of who's saved, not the church. Certainly not the church. Some churches add stuff that isn't even in the Bible. Some churches don't even believe the Bible is God's Word.

But I believe the Bible *is* God's Word. The Bible tells us about God and what is right and wrong. The Holy Spirit confirms this in our lives, and it is unmistakable. Repeatedly we are told that we don't have to guess, but we are told these things so we may *know* the truth. And contrary to what apple said, all religions do *not* lead to God. Ancestor worship is not going to get you to heaven. Blowing yourself up with explosives is not going to get you to heaven (and you won't get 72 virgins), and Jesus is the Son of God, not just a lesser prophet. You don't get continually reincarnated, and there is no karma. It seems to me that too many people call themselves "Christian" and yet do not believe the Bible. This will be a problem for them one day.

Edit: I just noticed this question (I guess I was replying to a followup above): What do you preach on forgiveness. Isn't God all forgiving? Do you believe Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc... Good loving souls will go to heck?

Personally, we are taught forgiveness in the Bible. As for God, I believe He will forgive a repentant person, because He has told us that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins. He is forgiving if we repent and ask, but the Bible is very clear that He doesn't just dispense forgiveness willy-nilly. "Oh, they did something wrong, but I am all powerful and loving and I forgive them." Nuh-uh. And there will be lots of good, loving people in heck, I'm afraid. Lots.

Read Larry's post above and it'll save me the effort of typing up the same thing.

posted by gryphon: But not lots of mean and spiteful people in heaven, I feel sure, regardless of whether they have their Holy Writ memorized backwards and forwards and their Faith as full as several wheelbarrows of mustard seed.

Ariel, what do you think is the criteria for salvation? What does it take to make one "right with God?"

Shantinik, the problem you have in reconciling all this information is that you simply don't understand, and won't open your mind, to the facts concerning the people who started this country. Of course you're going to have a problem making sense out of it as long as you hold to the views you have and refuse to open your eyes to the facts.

That's apparently where the rub is then, Shantinik. You're trying to decide for yourself how to define God, when you should be looking at the book He left behind that explains it all to you. *I* am not trying to define you at all. I'm simply telling you what the Bible says. If you don't believe the Bible, then stop using it as a reference for your religion. If you *do* believe the Bible, then you must deal with the fact that thousands of years before Christ was born, the virgin birth was foretold. So was his torture and death, and so was His resurrection.

The Psalms were the Hymnal of Worship in Old Testament days. Psalm 2 tells of the Deity and universal reign of the Messiah. Psalm 8 sings about how Man through the Messiah is to be the Lord of Creation. Psalm 16 tells of the Messiah's resurrection from the dead. Psalm 22 and 69 tell of His suffering. Psalm 89 is a song of God's oath for the endlessness of the Messiah's throne. Psalm 118 sings of how the Messiah will be rejected by the nation's leaders. All through the Psalms, the events of a thousand years in the future are sang about - piercing of His hands and feet, no bones broken, gave him vinegar to drink, gambling for his clothes.

700 years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah wrote "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Then, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

I could go on. But I think that is sufficient to show you that hundreds of years, a thousand years before Christ was born, He was told of, and to a very clear degree. All of this, Jesus claimed as referring to Him. In doing so, he claimed to be God. If Jesus is God, then he was born of a virgin, and he was resurrected - just as was told about a thousand years before it happened, and was written about after the fact, and as was witnessed by the people of the day, and just as He said Himself.

Now I don't pretend to be a perfect person. I've got plenty wrong with me. But with all the love I can project to you as a believer in God, I say to you that either Jesus was who He said he was, or it is all a fraud. I believe the evidence is there that it is true, that Jesus was God incarnate, as told by the 16 prophets in the Old Testament, and as He claimed. I do not believe that you or I either one has the right to determine on our own who God is, other than to accept who He said he was. And he left a book for us to learn that from. Men can write all the want as they try to reduce it to mere folk tales, myths, or legends. Men can try all they want to rewrite things to fit their desires. But it doesn't change the simple truth - the old testament is a history of a people chosen by God to redeem mankind, and the New Testament is the written story of that event coming to pass. It all took place long before your denomination or *anyone's* denomination began. Your denomination is just like any other - it is an organized belief system created by men, designed to promote their understanding of Scripture. Regardless of what your denomination or my denomination decides, the facts don't change. If there is a problem, it is with man's creation, not God's.

God created man in His image, and gave man free will. God walked and talked freely with man until man screwed up. Once man had sinned, God could no longer look upon him. Man had to be punished for this, but also a method of bringing man back to the presence of God had to take place. God had to become a man Himself, and sacrifice Himself for man's sin. That man is Jesus. The prophets told of His coming a thousand years before He was born. It all hinges on it happening exactly as the Bible says it happened - if Jesus didn't rise from the dead and go back to the Father, then it was all for nothing. If it is all for nothing, then no one's religion matters.

Larry --

I'm glad you spend a lot of time curled up with a good book and feel so strongly about St. Irenaeus.

I read pretty well, thank you, although I've had to increase the strength of my reading glasses.

I'm glad everything in your book is so darn obvious to you, even if lots of other folks who hold it as closely to their heart as you do, and have certainly studied it as long as you have don't see eye-to-eye with you. I am sorry for you that so many of them happened to call themselves Christians, were considered by others around them to be Christians, and died as Christians. I know this makes you very uncomfortable, and I hope you find something in your book that helps you deal with your discomfort. I mean, even if I wanted to, I can't change that reality of history.

Since you can't get these tens of millions of people to give up the name (remember, they're dead and you can't even argue with 'em), and since you can't change history, as much as you might like to try, maybe you should go try to find another. It would have to be something with the word "progressive" in it, because obviously those folks who died carrying the Christian moniker with them had an earlier view than yours, and you seem to think we've "progressed" since then.

Of course, I don't care much if you decide you still prefer the Christian label. You can call yourself whatever you like. As for me, well, the Jesus I read didn't have much to say about gay folks, but he sure had it in for bankers!

What He *really* had it in for were those who rejected him. He called it the unpardonable sin. Any sin man might do could be forgiven, but rejecting Him could not be forgiven. He claimed to be God. He said "no man comes to the Father but by me". He knew the Old Testament, and made it clear that the Messiah to come, born of a virgin, was Him. He told his disciples that he would rise from the dead in 3 days. If you reject His plain teachings, you've rejected Him - the unpardonable sin. All the studying in the world will not help you. No matter how you try to redefine Him, if you reject Him, you've committed the unpardonable sin. Banker, gay, or whatever.

oh, what a lot of tiresome blather! :rolleyes:

lp, shantinik, and ariel, it is gratifying to see you all getting the best of our logic-challenged membership here.

why can't you folks get it straight? there is no god. the supreme court made the right decision on abortion in 1973. and there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

get a clue!

gryphon asked me: First of all I want to thank you sincerely for asking me these serious questions. I take it as a compliment that you want to know what I believe, and what's more, it will give me a lot to think about it. So please forgive me, if I give only partial answers for the moment as I mull them over (perhaps for the rest of my life) - and even then, I doubt I will have any answers as rock-solid as yours. Don't be so sure that this is a weakness, however. And it certainly makes things harder for me - gives me a lot more spiritual work than kind of joining a club with the rules spelled out.

I'll take your questions in reverse order, trying to start with a short statement of my religion (as much for my clarity as anyone else's). And then "getting right with God", followed by "Salvation"! Daunting.

My religion is as eclectic as my background is - and then some. I identify myself "ethnically" as Jewish in much the same way as a half black identifies him/herself as Black (remember, I grew up in a very anti-Semitic environment - including my own family!). I raised my sons as Jews, not just out of a personal faith (actually, I have more than a few problems with Judaism, rich as it is ), to start them off with a foundation in life. I believe kids need that - a tradition to learn about and hopefully also use in developing ethics. I also did it because of the social support structure it provided, and of course, because I felt that as my sons, if I was Jewish - well, so were they (while not denigrating other ingredients in the stew of their identity).

Besides, as history has shown, Jews are often defined from outside as with the Nurenburg Laws, so they might as well learn about their traditions, never knowing who may call them Jewish regardless of changing names, noses or religions (all of which have occurred in my immediate family!).

However, in my heart of hearts, I view religious Judaism as a launching pad for them - and I hope they will examine it critically, deciding later in life, whether it fits them and what they personally believe. In the first place, I believe that without doubt, there can be no genuine faith. (Seems to me I heard that from justme earlier about Catholicism - or am I imagining things?) But, shhhh. I haven't told them this anyway!

What's more, I hope my kids will develop a personal sense of right and wrong as well as the strength of character to act upon it even when tempted otherwise. I don't think that strength is ever the result of "blind faith".

Maybe they will remain Jews religiously - I think they always will in a way, through their absorbing the rituals, actual melodies - but what they call themselves...I don't know. And frankly, I don't care that much, as long as they have worked to arrive at their beliefs, and - as I said - have the integrity to apply them in their daily lives. The only thing I hope for in a specific way (besides that they keep liking me - you never know how far rebellion can extend later on!) is that they marry someone with the same faith as themselves for stability in the family, which God knows, needs all possible help!

How I believe in "getting right with God", you asked? Hard to believe this is still the "Troll" thread on Piano World.com, July 2003 A.D./C.E. - the year 5763 in the month of Tammuz, by Jewish reckoning.

I don't know for sure, but I do have some pretty strong opinions about what WON'T work, taken from my Jewishness perhaps:

1) that I need no intermediary to God; in fact, that an intermediary can be a form of idolatry or at the very least, a moral cop-out. A way of not taking responsibility for cultivating that relationship on my own. I can be taught, guided, certainly influenced by example and inspired by the wondrous good I see people are capable of (and which I would like to emulate)...but ultimately, "I and Thou", to quote Buber.

2) that I cannot get "right with God" for sins against my fellows, without making it right between me and them. As on Yom Kippur, we are enjoined to ask forgiveness from those we have offended (yes, even by our own malicious or envious thoughts!)- and to make tangible reparations where that is suitable.

In other words, I don't think I can go to God and ask forgiveness for a wrong committed against a fellow (who is a representative of God, galling as that may seem sometimes! ) without equally or more apologizing to that person! I sure wouldn't think it was right (not by me nor acceptable to God) if someone seriously wrongs me and confesses to God alone, believing him/herself forgiven. Leaving me totally out of the picture!

I'll choose an extreme (but very plausible) example: Suppose someone burns my house down as an act of revenge - maybe out of envy or because of feeling rejected. Later, that person beats their chest, confessing their sin to God - either in a Catholic Confessional or at a Communion service or even privately - and (supposedly) receives absolution. Period. Without paying for rebuilding my house and apologizing to ME!

And to reiterate, I don't believe in a God who would find that arrangment satisfactory either.

On Yom Kippur, the only sins we take to God for cleansing are supposed to be actual sins against God: promises we made, (perhaps to reform our characters), or turning away from God after pledging something. That's why the greatest prayer during that holiday is the beautiful and famous singing of "Kol Nidrei" - "All our Vows"!

But we are supposed to (and I'm sorry to say few do anything but pay lip service to this noble ideal) make amends to our fellows separately. One reason for the mechanical approach to this ideal, is that it is so hard to truly know whom we have wronged - and it is harder still, to separate our wrongs from a nexus of action/reaction.

Well, that's as far as I can take it now, gryph. in answering your question about "getting right with God". I know it's very incomplete, partly because I haven't yet got it quite straight, just who or what "God" is.

As for "Salvation"...Well, now that I think about it, I'm not at all positive I believe in "Salvation" - certainly not in the same way you do.

I see it more in the here and now for starters. I'm sure people can experience heck on this earth, for instance - I certainly have. As well as a small glimpse of heaven...

Some say that heck is estrangement from God, losing contact with the Divine...and that heaven is union with God, fully bringing to flower the best the human soul is capable of.

I can't quite picture either one in the abstract, butI have many personal heroes if you're interested, people who seem to have achieved this "flowering".

Among them are: Mother Theresa, Albert Schweitzer, The Dalai Lama, Mr. Rogers (don't laugh! I think he was a saint), Paulo Urbani - the doctor who saved a whole Taiwanese hospital from SARS, while alerting the world to the danger of the disease - only himself to die in agony from massive exposure to the virus! And others I have on file either by name and deed, or simply by inspiration...Most of them have unfamiliar names. And none of them were/are perfect people, though still exemplifying the best a human being is capable of: to rise above the heavy gravitational pull of self-interest in life (And in so doing, finding freedom from adhesion to that selfishness - the true meaning of "selflessness").

I share this file with my sons, by the way. It's the closest I can come right now to setting such an example myself.

The word "selfless" can sound scary in terms of the independent American mentality. I believe, however, that not only is it liberating, but that in a way, achieving selflessness is the highest form of individualism. It's even very Christian-sounding. Wasn't Christ the ultimate self-made man? There's a rugged individualist for you! But he said, "Not mine, but Thy will be done."

And selflessness is a concept which unites all major religious traditions I know of.

Even isolated acts can be part of this loss of self (the closest I can come to describing "salvation") - acts which are beautiful: someone who dies trying to rescue a drowning stranger, the rescue workers who entered the Trade Towers when everyone else was fleeing...I still tear up when I picture that brigade.

In rising above themselves, I believe they became free perhaps wholly contrary to their own expectations, when they felt at the moment, they had become servants!

Note: I am specifically referring here to those who lived an ideal rather than those however noble, who perished in a single act of heroism. This is a very important distinction in this age of self-made "martyrs" to many dubious causes - all confident that they are achieving instant "salvation". I think anybody who really struggles to do right from day to day, knows very well that it is a lot harder to live for a cause than to die for it.

I believe that in making themselves instruments of the Divine will (what a pompous-looking phrase now that I see it written ), however they did it, people can become immortal...and also, while still living, they can achieve a joyful though incomplete, union with what I call "God".

I also believe that it is equally possible - inevitable, in fact - to lose our souls if we lose this struggle to raise ourselves, even those pitiable persons who are blamelessly doomed from the start by distortions in family or other aspects of the environment. And if so, we fall back into the mere dust we came from, when our lives are extinguished.

More to the point - and this is strictly my personal theology! - I can see a good argument to be made for our souls' actually being created in the first place, through our raising ourselves up according to this human potential for immortality. Well, at least "soul" in the sense that a soul is by definition, immortal - almost in the way the "Little Sea Maid" (by Hans Christian Andersen, not Disney) was tasked with creating herself a soul in order not to dissolve into sea-foam at the end of her life.

That's about as close as I can come for now to describing "Salvation". It has very little if anything, to do with professing a creed or turning a prayer wheel or reciting a catechism or repeating a mantra or following a Party Line. But it has everything to do with becoming servants of God as we struggle to discover what God is in the first place. And at the same time, tyring to figure out what God asks of us - then doing it: fearfully or joyfully or sullenly...but doing it, nonetheless.

And in so doing, the "great souls" (the Mahatmas) achieve their immediate objectives: whether rescuing lepers in Mombasa or cradling dying outcasts or daring to be a public parent to a generation of parentless children - a beacon of decency.

Possibly even something known only to themselves or a few who are close to them.

Even more importantly, though, I believe they raise the whole human race up a notch. And they show the rest of us how it can be done, that it can be done - what the human spirit is capable of. And by the way, that goes equally for those who struggle for an ideal they fail to achieve - but who "fight the good fight".

That's it for now - and pretty heavy reading, after all.

With liberty and justice...and compassion,
for all,

Ariel

Good to know. Just in case. I've already made reservations in the "smoking section".

Ariel,

Thank you for your very deep and sincere presentation of your beliefs and doubts.

I do not feel very comfortable with the idea of Heaven and heck. Especially since 9/11.
There is a lot of emotional and spiritual blackmail done with this promise and this threat.

And I am not sure it is honest or even legal to promise to someone everlasting bliss if he does something (like throw a plane against a building or give away his money) or everlasting suffering if he does not do something.

I know about suffering in life though and I can understand how some people can get carried away and turn it into a Myth. It has been used for thousands of years to control people's behaviour through hope, guilt and fear.
I am not sure it will be the basis of spirituality for very long though.

And what I am sure is that it is not a path but a dead end.

Without freedom and inner search, how can there be life. Or Life ?

(Gryphon, I have decided to keep my day job. Thanks for your advice ).

The variety of religious experience is incredibly rich.

It would be a good thing to define "religious experience" though.

Food for thought.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/james/#5

Nice mustache Ariel.

e.g.

Ah, but Larry, not so fast. You can't get away with a "whatever" -- you'd be playing fast and loose with your favorite book. You do that a lot in fact, picking and choosing that which confirms you in your own prejudices, and carefully avoiding that which makes you uncomfortable. You are quite entitled to do so -- I mean, after all, if it was good for Irenaeus....

Jesus never said a single word about gay people, and you know it. He certainly said nothing about the their heavenly status. But he had a lot to say about moneylenders (bankers), the rich (regardless of how they got that way), saving up "for the morrow", etc.

I believe you are really serious about your book. But I don't think it is worth engaging you about it until for every slam you take at gay folks, you take at least five at the moneyed set. I mean if it was that serious to Jesus, I would think it should be at least as important to you.

But if it isn't, that's okay, too. Given your level of discomfort with tens of milllions of other Christians past and present, I wouldn't expect otherwsise.