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If the threads stop revolving around religious right attempts to take over America, I will happily post on some other topic. If the Hindus try to take over the laws of our country, I will be posting polemics against militant Hinduism. If people who believe in goblins and tree spirits try to run our country, I will post against them as well.

I have no problem with you living by your personal values, just stop trying to impose them on others (abortion, gay rights, Shiavo, stem cells, etc.)

The "religious right" isn't trying to take over America, Jeffrey. They are simply fighting back against the attempts to take over America that's coming from the left. Atheism is a religion, and you are one of its disciples. That's fine, if that's what you want. But the simple fact is, a thread could start talking about fishing and you would somehow manage to inject an attack on religion into the thread. You are obsessed with it.

If God was something you simply didn't believe in, you'd just not bother with it. But that's not what you do. You focus on it, obsess over it, find every opportunity to bring it up just so you can once again tell everyone there isn't one. If I personally didn't believe in the existence of God, I wouldn't feel the slightest bit compelled to refute it. It wouldn't threaten me. You are threatened by it.

I am not trying to impose my religious views on you, or anyone else. I have never said the first negative thing about homosexuals, in fact I said what I wanted to say on the subject *once* - to say that it is not my place to judge anyone. I apparently did a pretty good job of stating my view - one of our other members, Derick, was moved by it so much that he sent it in to some of his friends in the Log Cabin Republicans to see if they'd print it in their newsletter (or something like that, he can tell you better than I). Abortion is not a religious issue to me. It's an issue of morality. Or are you of the opinion that only religious people have morals? Schiavo is also an issue of morals, not religion. Stem cells - you don't know *what* my opinion is regarding stem cells.

The ones stuffing their religion down people's throats Jeffrey, are those who hold minority religious views but demand the country push their collective religious views aside to make room for yours. Better than 90% of the people in the world say they believe in a higher power. That means that less than 10% hold your opinion. Yet every day, the majority of Americans have to give up another inch to your 10%.

Jeffrey, I mean you no harm. You can believe whatever you want to believe. But don't be so arrogant as to belittle the 90+% of the world as simple minded. Far greater minds than yours or mine have made the same journey for truth, and walked away convinced God is. Likewise, far greater minds than your's or mine have walked away convinced God *isn't*. My point - it is a fool's game to belittle the side you disagree with and dismiss them as idiots, on par with people who believe in tree sprites, or some other mocking put down. When you do that, the only person to walk away looking like a fool is you. I do not question the intelligence of an atheist just because he's an atheist.

You think with only your head, Jeffrey. You put all your faith in man, in yourself, and defend that by talking about science. You will never know *anything* Jeffrey, by limiting your knowledge to what man is capable of knowing. As vast as that may seem to you, it is a mere speck of sand. Some things are too big for science, Jeffrey.

God is, Jeffrey. Whether you accept that or not is up to you, not me. But you will search and search, and never find him, Jeffrey. You'll never find him because in spite of all your intellect and all your education, you don't know where to look. And you aren't open to anyone telling you where to look. But it's a journey that only you can make, Jeffrey. I can't convince you to listen, and it isn't my job anyway. Nor is it your job to tell me how to walk *my* journey.

Attempts?

Sorry bud, no attempt needed. Already done.

Excellent post, Larry.

I dont wanna step in between you 2 on this. But Larry, there is a very blatant questioning of the intelligence of atheists in these exchanges. And it is just as arrogant and condescending as that you identify with Jeffrey. Even the rest of your post goes on to remark on what you consider to be his limited capacity to address the issue fully.

Other peoples posts use language like "they'll never get it." "It cant be explained to them" "If you look, you'll find it, I know you will". All these belittle their target and suggest limited intelligence. Dont think its only one way.

And personally, that's what offends me and gets my mouth moving. I dont care what anyone believes for their own lives, and if they've found joy with god, I actually envy their peace and happiness, and I often find a beauty in hearing that happiness expressed in some posts here. But its the condescension as if the religious folks have experienced some premium exposure to the human condition that aetheists havent and thus understand the inside track. That is belittling, arrogant, condescending, and rude. Just like what you're finding offensive. We're all given the same tools.

None of these posts suggest limited intelligence; Only limited understanding.

Thank you, JB.

Games with rhetoric (and not true). Its belittling and condescending.

it is very easy to logically defend atheism. Spirituality is 'on another plain' so to speak.

I've a question for atheists.

Do you have any incentive to be good for goodness's sake, and if you do, why?

Because Santa Claus is coming to town?

good answer!

You could be on family feud.

Even the rest of your post goes on to remark on what you consider to be his limited capacity to address the issue fully.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about only Jeffrey's limited capacity to understand, I was talking about man in general.

Is this your only style of response? "pedestrian", "belittling", "condescending"? Games with rhetoric?

Go look in a mirror.

I dont self classify as an aetheist, but I'll remark that I'm motivated to be good because I feel bad if I'm not. I believe the only criterion for being good is not hurting people. And if I hurt people, it makes me feel like crap. I feel empathy for their injury, and I wouldnt want to be treated that way, and dont feel I have the right to impose. None of that comes anywhere close to a god issue. And I find it a rather curious implication that having a moral judgement from a god would be the only thing keeping someone in line, for fear of reprisal. Seems like anyone who would NEED that holy policing to keep them in line is someone of questionable character and morals. I know I'm going past the content of your post, there's just a weird between the lines thing there.

And other than not hurting people. I have no motivation to be "good" in terms of religious definitions. I dont think I'm being 'bad' for having premarital sex, or drinking, or what not, so I'm not inclined to moderate those behaviors "for goodness sake". If anything, I'd increase their practice "for goodness sake". So I depart there from the religious practice of being good.

Do you help people altruistically?

My only style? Apparently you've missed 99% of my posts. Maybe that's all I've been saying to you. Gosh, I wonder why?

"go look in a mirror"? Isnt that from the same book as "I'm rubber, your glue..." I see I'm up against a real Algonquin round table here.

Yes, I have. I dont know that I could say I "do". It has happened, it will happen again. Its not something I schedule into my life, however.

I can accept that its motivated by feeling good about myself afterwards. Ayn Rand was big on that, there is no altruism, and selfishness is a virtue. One only helps oneself, but that can include seemingly selfless acts, but indeed provides a self reward afterall. An interesting philosophy that I dont dispute and do contemplate.

The Dali Lama spoke of this in a talk I attended once. That selfless acts nourish ones own life. Not in the concept of altruism, but in the [meta]physical dynamics of the universe, just like throwing a rock in water returns a splash, giving to others returns benefits inkind. Not from judgement or reward, but from the mechanics of the universe.

Maybe it's that lack of understanding thing I spoke of.

However, continue to hold forth as though the majesty of creation shines through the 99% you spoke of. Perhaps, someday, your wisdom, humility and capacity for not taking yourself too seriously will match your (obvious) intellect for at least the other 1%.

Now, go back and read what I quoted from you above and tell me which part is not "belittling" or "condescending". Call it a homework assignment if you wish.

Yes, I was being condescending and belittling. Never did I deny that. My post (if you read it, your homework) was telling Larry it comes from both sides, not just the one.

And since you couldnt even figure that out, I'm afraid you require me to continue the belittling your intelligence.

And I dont know what this "take yourself too seriously" thing is about. You keep coming back to that. Its just rhetoric you throw in that means nothing to this thread. You dont seem to be interested in discussion, you seem interested in opening your mouth and trying to score insult points. I have yet to see you post to this thread anything that offers an idea rather than just siding with someone or trying to put down "one of them".

grow up.

Correct me if I'm way off apple, but you are sort of getting at that question I had a few months ago about what's the meaning of life if you're an atheist. I know that sounds really harsh, but I think you know what I mean. Basically, if we turn into dust in the end and are all part of a random burst of energy...why would it matter at all if we just all just commit suicide? Because it might hurt an intangible feeling which is nothing more than a few sparks of electricity in the old noodle signalling a mortal emotion from others? Basically so you wont sadden others via your death? Whats the point of living if you're an atheist? I just dont see any. Nothing matters. That's an honest question.

Sorry again apple if I'm way off...feel free to slap me!

Maybe I did misunderstand then. But if you feel that man has this limited capacity to understand, you're still asserting that you had the ability to break free of that limitation, whereas Jeffrey hasnt/cant. Correct? Arent those just different words to say the same thing?