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Joined: Oct 2004
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There can be beauty in tragedy.
Strangely, the victims never see it.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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My further problem comes when there is an associated hostility/condescension/ridicule toward "nonbelievers" from "believers" (speaking in general now, not you specifically). That demonstrates for me that there is a lot of hate and fear involved. These things are not glorious or exciting. I agree completely. I apologize that I have kept using the words "lack of understanding". I guess in my mind when speaking those words to myself I was thinking them very logically, as in we clearly have different understandings, and that your understanding is lacking something that is within mine, just as my understanding is lacking something that is within yours. I don't mean to invalidate your feelings or beliefs. This statement is applicable to tcmod as well... I am sorry that I am not always a concise thinker. I get very heated sometimes when I feel someone is questioning something only to be antagonistic, with no real desire to understand the answer, and I apologize for that. I wrote all of that at least an hour ago... sorry I got stuck doing some work. I just want to be clear that I enjoy these discussions, even if I'm not the most skilled at having them. I think it's nice to discuss opposing view points, and to discuss difficult concepts and ideas that people have come to different conclusions about. I apologize if because of my "no edit" style of posting, and a mild case of ADD I get caught in a line of reasoning that becomes seemingly insluting or intolerant.
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Originally posted by Moonbat:
There can be beauty in tragedy.
It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do. I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Originally posted by JBryan: Originally posted by Tom--K:
[b] Here's something. I believe in God--he's been good to me. Really, I don't know much about business. I never have and never will. You look at my answers in the "hay you financial geniuses" threads--and mine come across as pretty dufus. I really don't know business.
But, I bet you can roll all the financial geniuses together and I can easily buy and sell them.
I never was much good with girls, No girlfriends in HS, one in college. Then my wife--babe of all time, Yale, Columbia, georgous, and all that. Did pantyhose ads for Hanes stockings. Good Catholic to boot.
The kids--not the time to get into it, but gifts. Two gifts.
All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good.
God has blessed me. And I'm thankful.
There is a God.
And why--I don't know. But, I know I'm not that good and he's blessed me. Best post and response in this laborious sucker ...
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If you are truly seeking understanding, it's easy enough to find. This issue is one that is covered extensively.
Any study of God's character will show that God loves his creation, desires the best for them, and yet still allows them to make their own decisions. That works on a situational basis (good decision vs. bad decision), but also works on a global basis. God created a perfect world where "bad" didn't exist. Man chose to have knowledge of "good" and "bad". Man chose to do a lot of things, and was allowed to.
Now a bit further down the timeline, the whole "painting" is "smeared". Bad things happen all the time, not because God is some causal part of every second that passes, but because we've asked to be left alone, and to be able to do things ourselves regardless of the consequences.
Why would be blame God for the bad things? Why wouldn't we assume that there might be consequences for our (humans in general, not individuals) actions? I differentiate between self and whole because the next logical argument is "what about a person who loses their child in a tragic accident... did they deserve that?"... of course not. I think it's possible that one person's actions can affect another person. And that can cause disappointment, even tragedy for someone who seemingly doesn't "have it coming". But that does not speak to God's callousness... at least not to me. I guess I'm looking at the whole thing a bit deeper than that.
God built the world, God made the rules, viruses infect, earthquakes demolish, volcanoes burn, all dancing to the laws of physics, laws chosen by God. Many of the events known as "natural disasters" occur on other planets, occured on our planet prior to man's occupancy, and in many instances are very well understood in terms of the underlying physics. Surely given that, it is beyond doubt that there are causal factors outside of man's influence?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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God built the world, God made the rules, viruses infect, earthquakes demolish, volcanoes burn, all dancing to the laws of physics, laws chosen by God.
Many of the events known as "natural disasters" occur on other planets, occured on our planet prior to man's occupancy, and in many instances are very well understood in terms of the underlying physics. Surely given that, it is beyond doubt that there are causal factors outside of man's influence? Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'm quick enough to know exactly what you mean by this. Are you saying that it's clear that these things don't happy to ruin man's life, but happen because of the system they're a part of? If so, I think that's a good point
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Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'm quick enough to know exactly what you mean by this.
Are you saying that it's clear that these things don't happy to ruin man's life, but happen because of the system they're a part of?
If so, I think that's a good point
From your post it seemed like you were placing blame for natural disasters at man's feet: We chose to be able to do bad things, we have ended up in a world where bad things happen. But, we didn't alter the laws of physics, that is presumeably Gods domain, and natural disasters emerge from the laws of physics, Earthquakes happen because of the structure of planets, so it would seem Earthquakes are God's 'fault', for whatever reason he's chosen to create a natural world where Earthquakes occur, knowing that doing so would inevitably cause suffering.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do.
I mean no disrespect, but to suggest beauty in the suffering of others seems to somehow trivialise that suffering. I see no beauty in those in poverty dying of AIDs, or the tsunami victims who have lost their children. For me atleast the kind of suffering described above is the very essense of uglyness.
I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
I think the ability to see beauty when lost is a true strength, i hope it always stays with you.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Originally posted by Moonbat:
It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do.
For me atleast the kind of suffering described above is the very essense of uglyness.
I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
I understand and certainly would never want to trivialize someone's pain and suffering. My cousin died of AIDS. I believe he's in a better place and finally at peace. That's his beauty. He's no longer in pain emotionally and physically. As to the tsunami victims I'm doing my best to find something beautiful resulting from such a tragedy. Where I fail to find beauty is in evil. Pure evil. Where people hurt others intentionally for their own pleasure. I fail to find beauty in pedophiles and rapists for example. Where's the beauty in that? Or racism? where's the beauty in racism? Sorry to go on.
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I need to echo Jolly's sentiment that this is a laborious sucker, 4 pages and no end in sight. What we have here is discussion between the logical aetheists and believers. Both are convinced they're right and the other is off the wall. Well I found something today that will agree with neither of you. I offer this link for your pleasure of agreement. You'll all probably think this is nuts and perhaps it is, or maybe this guy's right and you're all only seeing part of the picture; http://www.kryon.com/k_chanelhowbig.html
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thanks for sharing steve!  These people are certainly tapping into something very powerful and meaningful to them.
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I found that to be a beautiful metaphor. Although some of his articulation I found a bit rough around the edges (for me), but shares much with my conception of "god" and the human condition. Also powerful in that text is the notion of the naive limitations of religious imageries that limit themselves to only the capacity of "the glass". That is right on the money with what I've attempted to articulate many times here, not as successfully as he has tho.
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?
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I would like to know who you are Yhap. A while back you were posing as a Muslim from the middle east who was living in Canada, chastising American women for showing skin and branding some of us "infidels." If you believe the article you posted here, you are obviously one big infidel yourself. So what gives? Whose socky are you?
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I would like to know who you are Yhap. A while back you were posing as a Muslim from the middle east who was living in Canada, chastising American women for showing skin and branding some of us "infidels." If you believe the article you posted here, you are obviously one big infidel yourself. So what gives? Whose socky are you?
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Larry: "Jeffrey, what is it about God that you fear so much you devote most of your waking thoughts to disproving him?" There isn't much to disprove. A better question is why I devote waking hours to the Coffee Room. If the threads stop revolving around religious right attempts to take over America, I will happily post on some other topic. If the Hindus try to take over the laws of our country, I will be posting polemics against militant Hinduism. If people who believe in goblins and tree spirits try to run our country, I will post against them as well. I have no problem with you living by your personal values, just stop trying to impose them on others (abortion, gay rights, Shiavo, stem cells, etc.)
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Originally posted by Jeffrey:
A better question is why I devote waking hours to the Coffee Room.
AMEN! Brother I HEARD That!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I"m addicted to this crack too.
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Keep your stereotypes at bay, Kathy. Don't brand me as a Muslim only because I don't agree with your ultra-feminist views. branding some of us "infidels." Infidels of logical thought. Quite untrue. I would have to disbelieve what is true, thus I am not.
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If the threads stop revolving around religious right attempts to take over America, I will happily post on some other topic. If the Hindus try to take over the laws of our country, I will be posting polemics against militant Hinduism. If people who believe in goblins and tree spirits try to run our country, I will post against them as well.
I have no problem with you living by your personal values, just stop trying to impose them on others (abortion, gay rights, Shiavo, stem cells, etc.) Well said. I agree completely.
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Very well put Jeffrey.
My sentiments exactly, but words only you could craft.
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