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#848759 - 07/12/02 08:09 AM Iraq  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
Samejame Offline
500 Post Club Member
Samejame  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
NL, Canada
MY second new topic in ten minutes. As you can tell, I don't much feel like working this morning. Interesting and mildly shocking documentary on PBS last night (I think it was called "Wide Angle" or something like that) about the connections between Saddam, Bin Laden et al and weapons of mass destruction - thought to be the next onslaught from terrorism, targeting Britian, USA, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

I say mildly shocking because I was and was not suprised at how closely linked the Iraqi regime is/was to past and present terror campaigns. It shocked me to see the hard evidence of this, but I was hardly surprised.

A USA defence analyst interviewed thinks the USA can't roll over Hussein's regime fast enough, and the danger is in how long Bush waits. What do you guys think?

Jamie


"A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" Oscar Wilde.
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#848760 - 07/12/02 09:08 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Francis Offline
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Francis  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Portland, OR
Hey Jamie,

Missed that show. I hope they rebroadcast it sometime later this week. One question: what was the hardest piece of evidence linking Saddam to bin Laden and/or terrorism against the US and England?

I've seen similar shows before, and wonder if any amount of evidence against Saddam (short of a SCUD missile landing in Israel, or unrefutable physical evidence pointing to Iraq's involvement in 9/11) will be enough for the UN to approve a military campaign against Saddam.

Without a strong case against Saddam, any military campaign may do more harm than good, unless we know Saddam is ready to strike and we beat him to the punch (now if the CIA can covertly get Saddam, well that's a different story). My feeling is that if the US (and England) do hit Saddam militarily, we would be condemned by Russia (the guys that are supplying us with cheap oil and our only real hedge against the mid-east supply; plus, our new found friends against bin Laden and his likes; plus the old friends of Saddam) and most of the Muslim states in the mid-east and Pakistan, not to mention France...

Unless a case can be made and a coalition of nations united against Saddam (evidence alone is a start, but it only goes so far...thinking of the polls taken in Saudi Arab that showed a majority of the population didn't believe Islamic terrorists were the ones who attacked the WTC), attacking Iraq could make it very hard in the long-term to stabilize the mid-east, and to thwart future terrorist attacks.

Cheers,
Francis


Cheers,
Francis
#848761 - 07/12/02 10:16 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
Derick Offline
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Derick  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
New York
Francis,

Russia is not supplying us with cheap oil. Russian oil is a day dream that the US and Russia would like to turn into a reality. Currently, however, it costs far too much to ship oil from Russia to the US.

France is not our friend. They need us more than we need them by a long shot. In return for thousands of US soldiers dying for their freedom and millions of dollars of debt we forgave them, we got a statue. Gee thanks. Now they condemn us at every turn. Their opinion is of no value and should be dismissed.

Want hard evidence? Saddam won't let UN weapons inspectors in. If he's got nothing to hide, he'd let them in. Case closed.

I'm not attacking you but I am angry that the US has to defend, explain, and wine and dine all these ungrateful countries. I wonder how these countries that condemn the US would feel if suddenly we got real cozy with Iraq and started funneling money to Saddam as we do Israel. France is a heck of a lot closer to Iraq than the US. Do you think they'll bitch and moan then?

Derick


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
#848762 - 07/12/02 10:24 AM Re: Iraq  

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Interesting that PBS ran this the same week they are seeking funding from Congress and need support from the Il Duce Regime to get it.

#848763 - 07/12/02 10:30 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Francis Offline
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Francis  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Portland, OR
Hey Derick,

I should have put a big wink next to my France comment...

Gotta politely degree with you on Russian oil...not an expert myself, but from the little I've read, their oil supply is a reason I just bought an SUV.

BTW, I'm all for the CIA targeting this Saddam and keeping him on the run. Give the CIA control of a couple of unmanned planes to do the job even, great (better if they televise the hunt). I don't know if an all-out war is such a great thing though. One practical problem could be logistics alone (where do we stage our troops if no one allows us to use their land to conduct our operations from). Reminds me of the time France would not let the US fly over their territory en route to Libya...

Cheers,
Frank


Cheers,
Francis
#848764 - 07/12/02 10:37 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Francis Offline
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Francis  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 66
Portland, OR
BTW, I don't want to get off an a France thing here (hey, I hate the French just as much as the next guy...just kidding :-) ), but they did help us at one time with our own independence. Plus, they sold us half of our country for $10M.


Cheers,
Francis
#848765 - 07/12/02 11:02 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Derick  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
New York
Francis,

Russia does have plenty of oil, the problem is getting it here. Early this week or late last week the first Russian oil tanker docked in the US. It was more of an experimental mission than anything else.

But even if Russia was supplying us with all the oil we needed for $1/barrel, I hope you don't think that you, the consumer, will be seeing any savings. Or that the employees of the oil refineries will be getting raises, or better benefits. They won't. Wait, I take that back... None of the employees EXCEPT for the corporate executives. You know, the special people. God only knows where we'd be without them.

Ok, that's all I'll say about THAT issue.

Derick


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
#848766 - 07/12/02 11:12 AM Re: Iraq  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
Samejame Offline
500 Post Club Member
Samejame  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
NL, Canada
Francis,

To answer your question, as I recall;

A videotape from Iraqi security forces of AQ and other terrorist groups training inside Iraq.

Interviews with former Iraqi security force agents, one even witnessing Bin Laden pulling up in a Black Mercedes to witness the "graduating class" from terrorist school.

Sattelite photos of the two training areas in question, also pointing to evidence of possible bio weapons manufacturing.

I only saw part of the program, but what I saw looked pretty convincing to me.

Jamie

PS Link to program site, and interview with Richard Pearle
PBS Wide Angle Interview with Richard Pearle


"A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" Oscar Wilde.
#848767 - 07/12/02 01:32 PM Re: Iraq  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 157
chosenhandle Offline
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chosenhandle  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 157
Minnesota
Ever wonder how much more proof the goverment has on Sadam? If a TV show can get its hands on very damning information, my guess is that there are trunkloads of other, possibily worse, proof as to Sadams intentions.


Today I plan on just "goin' with the flow". So don't be messin' with my flow!

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