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How much do you like it? I mean, dollar-wise? You'll contribute exactly how much? You were the one that told me Frank was unemployed a day or two ago. How much do you care?

Listen. This is off line. The owner of this site, Frank has made it quite clear that no one is forced to offer a financial contribution to take part in the forum.

You haven chosen to give a donation, others haven't. That doesn't give you the right to frequently offend others (see your lasts posts in almost all threads) or for you to make sly comments like the one above.

I think Frank would be quite embarassed by your above comment as he has made it quite clear. He is not forcing anyone to donate.

Gryph...

time to get outside and get some fresh air...listen to the leaves rustle...play with the kids...

Seriously, even if you think Cindy misguided, she is sincere and does care. You may not value her caring or the method in which she expresses herself...but I frankly would not want her to leave PW - nor other folks of good will who inhabit our little world (JackF, Nina, Jodi, Nina, Mozart, etc.)

We may all frustrate the heck out of one another - but it it still would be nice if we could make this small part of the world work. You're a great guy - and though I probably saw too many Disney folks as a child, I still like to hope.

K

(To Mozart) You are quite correct. My reply was to Cindy specifically. It has to do with specific posts (both public and private) between Cindy and me. Nothing else. If you choose not to contribute to help keep Piano World that is up to you. I am not addressing this issue or speaking to you. I am only addressing specific posts between Cindy and me.

None of my posts has anything to do with my contributions to PW. (Not that it matters, but I started contributing way before Frank's recent public plea for help). As did others such as KlavierBauer (sorry, KB, you were just one name I knew about offhand). If you paid attention to what was going on you wouldn't have written your post (I think). My posts, recent or not, are 100% consistent with all 8,500+ posts I've made, contributions notwithstanding.

Are you serious? My kid is in Fallujah! It's noisy over there. :p

(Seriously, all my kids are grown up and living on their own. The youngest is 19. Four are in university, one in Iraq).

Heck, Ken, I just turned 48 years old! (So did Chris). I'm an old bastard. We no longer have kids at home. Chris and I are playing now. The C5 will be paid off in a few months, we'll sell the other house, and we'll spend months (okay, weeks) in Europe and Asia each year. (I hope). But not France.

Goodness! I go take my son to Burger King (man, that place is disgusting!), and look what is waiting for me when I get back:

Gryphon:

:heavy sigh:

When Frank said he would take voluntary contributions and would note that fact publicly on every post, I knew what would happen. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone pulled rank because they are a subscriber and someone else is not. And it took what -- two weeks? -- before someone said "I'm a subscriber, you're not, so my opinion is worth more than yours."

That, I submit, is the very last thing Frank wanted. He said he wanted no one to feel pressured to contribute. He resisted suggestions to make the recognition for donations more prominent. 'Cause Frank has class.

Gryphon, though, has to pull rank when he's unhappy.

It's none of your business, Gryphon, but I have my reasons for not having sponsored PW. I may in the future, and if so, you'll see a little badge of honour go up next to my name. As it stands, I do buy sheet music through the site, but I guess that's not good enough for you.

Kluurs is right. This place is at a tipping point. After the election, I was thinking it would right itself and we'd soldier on. Now, it seems a few people will say positively *anything* and launch any attack to get their way and vent their anger.

How sad is that?

Well. I suggest the rest of you folks subscribe at the platinum level this minute so Gryphon won't come after you next.

It's not the sponsorship, Cindi, it's the negativity.

Most of us want the forums to prosper. We want them to continue to be the best piano corner on the net. We'll offer to ride herd, haul trash, or do whatever Frank wishes, in order to achieve that goal.

You do not seem to have the same goal that many of us do.

And I simply do not understand why....

Cindy, you don't get it because you don't understand what you advocated. It has nothing to do with pulling rank or being any more valuable for contributing. You are now advocating things that cost extra money. Are you willing to pay for it? It's as simple as that. Quit trying to be a drama queen.

When are you going to grow up?

Jolly,

I am negative toward the various concepts Larry proposed, as are a whole bunch of people. No doubt about it.

I am positive toward PW, and I have tried to demonstrate that by making suggestions about ways Frank might achieve his goals. And, like others who make suggestions, I happen to think mine are pretty good or I wouldn't have made them.

If you want to call that being negative, go ahead. It's a rather pointless accusation, if you think about it. If you make a proposal and someone says, "No, I don't think that is a good idea, let's do this instead," of course they are being negative about your proposal. They said "No," which is by definition a negative assertion. So what?

Honestly, Jolly, I actually tried to avoid this hideous 15-page spectacle as soon as it started. Larry said his feelings wouldn't be hurt, that he could take it if people really said openly what they thought of his proposals or him personally. I tried to wave you guys off early in this thread, as I suspected Larry would not in fact be happy to hear the things people were saying. Who would? No one listened, so the beating went on and on and on.

And look what happened. Larry's angry, his buddies are really angry. How is that good for PW? Could it have been avoided? Of course. Is it my fault? Puh.

So. I know the game plan here is to intimidate, harrass, harangue and otherwise flame people who disagree with the shifting, nonsensical proposals being put on the table in this thread. I'm sorry some have chosen that approach, but I will continue to offer my opinion at PW to the extent I have something to say that I think will be helpful.

I just hope there's something left of PW when certain folks finally lay down their flame throwers.

Finally, Jolly, I will just say that I think you have been level-headed and reasonable throughout this discussion, although we seem to disagree on the best solution to the issues facing PW. Thank you for that.

And I haven't been level-headed and reasonable in this thread?

And look what happened. Larry's angry, his buddies are really angry. How is that good for PW? Could it have been avoided? Of course. Is it my fault? Puh.

Larry isn't angry. He's fed up with distortions of the facts, people who can't stop pushing their own agendas, and people who don't use their brain. for instance, you said:

I am negative toward the various concepts Larry proposed, as are a whole bunch of people. No doubt about it.

This simply isn't the truth. In fact someone made up a list and *showed* you it isn't the truth. It came out that only 4 regular posters were negative - you, Kathy, Pique, and Bernard. Plus of course, 2 sock puppets and two trolls. Of those who supported the idea, 26 out of 28 are well established, long time, highly respected members. The other two are relatively new, but are proving themselves to be respected members as well. That stacks it so utterly lopsided against your claim that "a whole lot of people" are against the concepts I proposed that you cannot make your claim and say you have paid attention at the same time. The facts are simply too starkly against your claim to even take you seriously.

So. I know the game plan here is to intimidate, harrass, harangue and otherwise flame people who disagree with the shifting, nonsensical proposals being put on the table in this thread. I'm sorry some have chosen that approach, but I will continue to offer my opinion at PW to the extent I have something to say that I think will be helpful.

Anyone reading that thread from start to finish, knowing that a total of 4 regular members and 4 trolls make up your supporters and 28 members make up those who support my ideas, it is quite clear that 8 people managed to shout down 28 people. So if you want to talk about a game plan to intimidate, harangue, harrass, and flame people, a simple reading will show that the 8 people in your group out intimidated, outharangued, outharrassed, and outflamed over 3 times their number. A small little "clique" as someone called it, none with a single positive contribution to be found, flooded the thread with smears, attacks, flames, harrassment, you name it. If we were to remove all the posts made by that group of 8 people, the entire thread would be about 5 pages. Go try it. I did.

And that doesn't even include the "side threads" that got started to help boost the opinions of the negative group you find yourself aligned with.

I don't aim to start another war with you Cindy, but you simply aren't paying attention or something, because you could not be any further from the truth if you tried. You need to take a step back and take a good hard look at just who it is engaging in intimidation and harrassment, Cindy. The vast majority of it can be sourced to a combination of trolls, Kathyk, Pique, and the occasional jab from Bernard. And to a degree, though not as intentional and not as blatant, you as well.

You're not going to be able to ignore your assertion and my reply, Cindy. So? You ready to pay for the added expenses you are pushing for?

As Gryphon said, I've contributed before financially (though not as much as some), and would hate to see any part of this place go. I for one enjoy this being a free place, and prefer it to stay that way. For all of the emotions I go through reading these threads, I feel it would probably be better for me to not read them than to pay money to read them. That's just me though.
I am however, happy to offer any skill that I have in an effort to help out pianoworld (as I have made clear many times).

My last idea was an effort to solve the problem, rather than add to it by taking sides in an argument.

The problem:
recent posts containing profane or pornographic material.

The obvious solution:
filter for language and limit code in posts.

As I said, I don't know UBB.classic or whatever UBB Frank's using, but I'd wager that it wouldn't be too hard to setup some sort of HTML permissions for users based on whatever criteria. I may be wrong...

yes certain things would slip through sometimes... that's just life.

If I'm way out of line and this is a huge task, then I apologize. I certainly don't want to add to Frank's headaches. I'm actually trying to reduce them, and am trying to figure out a way to do it simply, without 30 pages of discussion.

I guess I'll do some research and see what I can find out.
It would be helpful though, if Frank would tell us what HE wants. I've sent "helpful" emails before fixing graphic mistakes or something like that, and have never received responses. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all, Frank must get 1000 emails a day, but I would like to know that Frank wants help before we all begin offering it.

It is after all not a public place, but a private one that's open to the public.
And Frank is the owner