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Con't from above ...

Dear WzKit,

I appreciate your interaction with my post.

My point is: there IS a reasonable price (or you can call it a reference price-point) for every piano/make/model for every year, and this guides the consumer in making his purchasing decision (in whatever country he is in).

If not, the guidelines and MSRP given by Larry Fine in his Piano Book is irrelevant and pointless. After all, “the seller tries to get the best price he can, given the circumstances, as does the buyer”, and there’s no point in referring to any price-point guidelines when purchasing the piano. That is, the dealer can quote whatever price he wants (tailored to “demand” in that micro-economy), and that price must be the reasonable price we should expect/accept. Given the dealer monopolies for many makes of pianos in Singapore, what does that translates to for piano buyers in Singapore?

Take it or leave it?

So Singaporean dealer tries to make as much as possible depending on whether the buyer is willing to pay for whatever price – however far from the reasonable retail price-point – that the dealer has quoted?

Now that’s a raw deal for the average consumer in Singapore isn’t it? There will always be rich folks (apparently unaffected by the economy) who can cough up that amount for high end pianos. That doesn’t make the price any more reasonable.

Reasonably priced high-end pianos in Singapore like Grotrian and Sauters would make these models more appealing to the average wage-earners in Singapore. Even if one can amply afford it (e.g. the high wage earners), one would still prefer to purchase a high-end piano with a reasonable price/value.

ppp

You're arguing over a question of value, which is a never ending debate. What is reasonable to one, is probably not reasonable to another.

WzKit, who is an economist by training, is simply stating the laws of demand and supply in Singapore for pianos will obviously favor the seller who has a monopoly over the brand. It is unfortunate but a fact of life here.

The same applied to Merc and BMW cars until the LTA allowed parallel importers into the market. You either take it or leave it.

The only option for the Singapore buyer of high end pianos is to shop around the different brands/agents and compare them against each other. But if you are particularly taken by the sound/touch of a specific brand, then there's really fewer options open. Perhaps you may find something in the secondary market which suits you.

Kenneth, you summarized my argument in the most concise fashion possible. One can argue endlessly over the question of "value" - which means different things to different people.

Obviously as a consumer, one wants the lowest price possible. Whereas the seller would try to sell it for the best price he can. The price the SK is being sold for is the "equilibrium" price, in that it is a price both parties have accepted for the transaction to go through. That perfect information does not

Note that I have judiciously avoided placing a judgement on the implicit "value" of a piano - which is a highly nebulous concept in any case. What I have merely done is to simply state the factors that may influence prices in Singapore. And in essence pointing out that the myriad of factors that influence pricing are likely much more complex than what ppp has made it out to be.

The balance of power in this market favours the seller, rather than the buyer unfortunately, and there's only so much one can do about it - apart from perhaps encouraging greater competition amongst brands, or going overseas to purchase and ship back here (didn't Roxane consider buying her Steinway direct from Germany?). And from what i've stated in my previous post, it may be quite misleading to simply use Fine's prices as a definitive guide, as local conditions probably differ. At best, it provides only a rough benchmark of relative pricing between brands (which even then is of highly dubious value), rather than a definitive measure of absolute prices.

cmk,

"WzKit, who is an economist by training, is simply stating the laws of demand and supply in Singapore for pianos will obviously favor the seller who has a monopoly over the brand. It is unfortunate but a fact of life here."

I have to agree with you on this; perhaps WzKit and I were talking pass each other.

The "laws of demand/supply" do favor the seller, and one can very well limit his purchase decision to such economic laws/perspective.

But a price-value evaluation would be the most natural thing to do when purchasing a piano and this is from the consumer’s point of view. A potential buyer/consumer wouldn’t jot down economic laws, demands and supply opinions etc while purchasing a piano and evaluating the pianos’ worth. The consumer would probably be led to read books by Larry Fine, and assess the piano’s worth/price based upon what is done/sold – not only in Singapore – but also in other countries with similar (though not the same) economic status. A Singaporean would also not likely to compare the price of pianos in Singapore with a third world country like Cambodia.

So all in all, it would be nice if consumers in Singapore compare the prices of, say, top end pianos sold here with the actual prices of similar models/make sold in other First World Countries. I mentioned Grotrian and Sauters in this forum because, despite the higher prices of these grands compared with the SK I purchased, these models are sold at comparable prices with the US (a first world economy) and the dealers are willing to do their best to prep the (high end) pianos they sell. Furthermore, these pianos come with substantially longer full warranties from the factories (which is not “deducted” further by the dealer). As a comparison, Kawai offers 10 years full warranty in the US, but only one year in Singapore (by the dealer). I have no special affiliations with either Sauter or Grotrian.

Please refer to my previous posts. I do not want to reiterate my posts ad infinitum.

My point is that your dogged insistence on the $15K number - which amounts to a 50% increase by your estimates, has led me to question the number and how you arrived at it. How do we know there really was a 50% across the board increase in prices?

My own experience (based on 3 separate price quotations) suggests that while the price gap between the "best price" quoted for SK-3 and the 3 was probably narrower 3 years ago than it is now, it was not the same price. The best price for SK-3 was probably 4-5K more than the C3, certainly not 31.5K (unless maybe you are a piano teacher offered special prices, or you have superb bargainin skills).

In fact, the highest price quoted 3 years ago was not materially different from the price you eventually paid for. This leads me to think that rather than a generalized 50% increase across the board, it may have simply been that you were unable to bargain to get the "best" possible price.
[QB]
You wrote, “Besides, the correlation between the horrendous MACRO economy AND the PIANO MARKET is not always perfect. It could be that the average buyer of a SK may be less affected by the slew of job cuts etc that are going on now. Or simply that they have so much spare cash that their ability to purchase a piano is unaffected by recent events. Or even if there is a positive correlation, the piano market could well respond to the broader economy with a lag. The fact is that we simply don't have the data to make such a strong assertion that you have made above.”

>Now isn’t that a red herring? The issue was whether the “PRICE” was reasonable, and has nothing to do with whether the buyer is able to afford the exorbitant pricing etc.
[/QUOTE]

My point is that you using the weak economy as an argument is contentious at best, and may not reflect the reality of the piano market, which is what really matters. And what is "reasonable" is a matter of huge debate - of which there can be no resolution. The only price that really matters is the real world is the equliibrium market clearing price, which in turn is determined by what the market is willing to pay (lack of information notwithstanding)

You wrote, “A far as I can see, that demand for Shigerus has held up relatively well over the past three years, partly because for the quality they deliver, they are seen as being cheap relative to the LOCAL competition ( which is a much more relevant point of comparison, rather than the US).”

>Now, WzKit, I don’t know what you are driving at here.

You know that there is ONLY ONE Kawai dealer in Singapore.

So what local competition are you talking about? Besides, when there is only one dealer (i.e. monopoly), and using your reasoning, the dealer could very well quote/sell the SK for whatever price he/she likes. And you HAVE to say that IS a reasonable price.

Now that’s convincing.

[/QUOTE]

Local competition can come in a few forms - 1. Another dealer in the same city selling the same brand. Most direct form of competition but generally quite rare as most manufacturers would only award one sole dealership per city - probably to avoid massive price undercutting and brand devaluation.

2. Another dealer offering competing brands perceived to be in the same league in terms of performance or price point. In this case, Robert's own german pianos are actually competitors to the SKs. Estonias, Sauters, Steingraebers, Bechstein etc would also most likely be considered by the same buyers considering an SK.

3. Used piano dealer offering the same product at a fraction of the price. Partial competition, but probably SK is still relatively new brand here, so there aren't that many in second hand dealers yet ( I did come across one at Emannuel and Sons however - wasn't impressed)

In Singapore, there is still significant competition across brands, rather than within brands. And a consumer who does his homework, and who really doesn't think the SK is of much value, can very well buy another brand.


You wrote, “And because of perceived value in the LOCAL universe, consumers are willing to fork out over $40K for a Shigeru.”

>Now how can you “PROVE” that? (Using your rhetoric) :p

I bought one because of misinformation/lack of information.

Given the consumer information, I wouldn’t have bought the SK3.

I would have bought a Sauter or a Grotrian (which, although being more expensive, I perceive as being more valuable).
[/QUOTE]

The very fact that Robert was able to sell you the SK at above $40K is proof enough that this is within the range of plausible market clearing prices.

In fact, the argument about misinformation/lack of information is a moot point. The dealer is obviously not incentivised to give the consumer information that may place his product at a disadvantage vis a vis the competition. He may, for some reason choose to not to diclose information, which the ignorant consumer may not find relevant or realise the significance.

Now this is not to say that I condone outright lying/misinformation by the dealer. Dishonest business practices such as these should be exposed. However, outright lying (e.g. telling you that a Bosendorfer is made in China when it is in fact made in Austria - yes I have heard such ridiculous assertions before) is quite different from witholding information (e.g. not telling you that the purchase of the SK does not come with a visit from the MPA). The difference may be subtle, but it is material.

In the case of the latter, the onus is really on the consumer to do his homework prior to the purchase (through forums such as these). He/she can then use whatever information he has gathered as leverage in getting the lowest possible price for the piano he has finally decided on. In this case, you could have asked if the visit by the MPA was included in the purchase price, and if not, use that as a bargaining chip to bring the price down drastically. Or simply walk away from the deal (which is what I did in the end).


You wrote, “I agree that service and prep standards leave very much to be desired - consistent with my own experience when I was making a choice between the SK and Sauter 3 years ago. But since the vast majority of buyers are unable to distinguish between a prepped and unprepped piano, this a largely irrelevant and moot point to them. As many have earlier pointed out, ignorance is bliss.”

>So are you saying that piano consumers SHOULD remain ignorant (in order to be blissful)?

We have the right to make an informed decision. Asking customers to buy (by withholding relevant information) is akin to dishonesty.
[/QUOTE]

See my argument above on the issue of information.


You wrote, “Ultimately, price is a function of both supply (which is what your argument is largely focused on) AND demand.”

>I don’t think I argued based upon supply and demand; I’m not an economist. I argued that, even with the rising Yen, ceteris paribus, the price of SKs in Singapore is exorbitant compared to another First World Country with even higher costs of living (USA). I’m not convinced that overheads in Singapore are significantly higher than the US. And you have conceded that it’s probably dealer monopoly in Singapore that pushes the prices up.

You wrote, “Even if Robert's cost structure was far lower than in the US, the SKs would not be able to sell for this price if buyers were not willing to pay this price in the first place.”

>You are assuming that buyers/consumers have access to relevant information to make that decision to purchase, which is why I am convinced that such information should be furnished, especially in this forum.

You wrote, “If all buyers in the market felt the same way as you did, Robert Pianos would be eventually compelled to drastically slash prices of Shigerus, else lose business to competing German brands. That he remains able to sell Shigerus at this price suggests that the market is willing to support this price remains intact for now, poor macroeconomy notwithstanding.”

>That’s a false dilemma. It could also be that consumers in Singapore are ignorant (your ‘ignorance is bliss’ point), and are misinformed. It could also be that other brands e.g. Grotrians, Sauters are not advertised/known as well. As for me, I did not even know there is a Grotrian dealer in Singapore, and I only heard of the Sauter dealer AFTER I purchased the SK3.

I did ask for information on such dealers in this forum, and did not receive any feedback at that time – which resulted in my purchase of the SK3.

You wrote, “There's nothing about "justifying" the price increases we have seen in recent years. Simply put, the seller tries to get the best price he can, given the circumstances, as does the buyer.”

>I would second your point if buyers are well educated about piano prices/quality and other brands, and are able to make an informed decision. [/QUOTE]

Again, see my point above about the issue of misinformation/witholding of information. The reality is that in most markets, perfect information, which is what many textbook models are premised on, is but an illusion. This applies not just to the Singapore market, but to the US market as well, and very often for the simple reason that dealers do not have an incentive for full disclosure if it could possibly disadvantages them.

Information is not going to be dished out on a platter - it requires the consumer to do your homework. Which is why forums such as these exist in the first place..

Since information disclosure is probably less of a differentiating factor between markets, market power and other factors (such as cost structure) are probably more significant factors.

Here's yet more evidence that drawing an analogy between buying cars and buying pianos really doesn't work at all.

Although car buyers don't have access to perfect information, those who care to do just a little bit of homework will find that there is a HUGE amount of information out there. Just look at what's available in print in the newspapers and in car enthusiast magazines from around the world and also online. Most of the key aspects about a car's construction quality, performance and safety can be tested empirically, or else can be demonstrated by experts who push the car to (and sometimes beyond) the limits of its performance envelope.

The astonishing thing about pianos is that although they are mechanically much simpler than cars, so much of a particular instrument's intrinsic value is unbelievably subjective, touchy feely. And so much of that subjective value is dependent on whether or not that piano has been built, regulated, tuned and voiced properly.

Yes, it is of course possible to get a sense of a particular brand/model's touch and tonal qualities in the showroom, but you are always left with the nagging suspicion that the piano is performing below par, and by an unknown amount! Look at Roxane's experience with the dud Steinway B in the showroom. She needed the help of her teacher (who has a Grotrian) to help her assess that instrument.

What's worse in Singapore is that, with a small number of exceptions, you also don't know if the dealer is capable of helping you to get the piano to perform at least near what it is capable of. If high-end pianos in showrooms are not well-prepped or tuned, then it is likely to be an indicator that they can't do the necessary for you in your home.

Having said that, one should also draw a balance between the cost of the piano and performance expectations, and how much one is willing to spend on getting (and keeping) it in good shape. You won't be able to make a mid-range piano play or sound like a high-end piano, but you can still get a lot of piano for your dollar. That's assuming you can find a tech with the necessary skills. :p In your case you are justified in expecting more from Robert Piano because you have bought a new tier 1C piano, not a $3k budget job. The problem is matching your expectations with reality.

So, ppp, caveat emptor. Forget the buyer's remorse and disappointment with Robert Piano, because it isn't going to change anything. Life is too short to stay upset about such things for long. At least Robert Piano managed to finally send you a tech who was able to prep your piano to your satisfaction!

You wrote, “My point is that your dogged insistence on the $15K number - which amounts to a 50% increase by your estimates, has led me to question the number and how you arrived at it.”

>My “dogged insistence” was secondary to research from forums such as this.

You wrote, “How do we know there really was a 50% across the board increase in prices?”

>The clause “Across the board” was presumably added into my post? I referred (in context of my posts) to the SK3, which is no direct reference to all existing models.

You wrote, “My own experience (based on 3 separate price quotations) suggests that while the price gap between the "best price" quoted for SK-3 and the 3 was probably narrower 3 years ago than it is now, it was not the same price. The best price for SK-3 was probably 4-5K more than the C3, certainly not 31.5K (unless maybe you are a piano teacher offered special prices, or you have superb bargainin skills).”

>As a comparison, the “best price post-bargaining” of the SK3 is now 15K more than the C3. Does that say something about the price of the SKs in Singapore? It does to me. ALL THE Yamahas C and S models have remained roughly the same in price since 2005 in Singapore. Does that, again, say anything about the price of the Yamahas in Singapore (coupled with your Yen is rising argument)? I think it does.

You wrote, “In fact, the highest price quoted 3 years ago was not materially different from the price you eventually paid for. This leads me to think that rather than a generalized 50% increase across the board, it may have simply been that you were unable to bargain to get the "best" possible price.”

>Which leads us to the problem of this dealer not displaying his/her prices for all his/her pianos. Besides, my friends who have walked in and bargained for the SK3 have likewise got similar “best prices.” What does their experience say about the prices of SKs in Singapore?

You wrote, “My point is that you using the weak economy as an argument is contentious at best, and may not reflect the reality of the piano market, which is what really matters. And what is "reasonable" is a matter of huge debate - of which there can be no resolution. The only price that really matters is the real world is the equliibrium market clearing price, which in turn is determined by what the market is willing to pay (lack of information notwithstanding)”

>As a consumer, I judge a price to be reasonable if, given similar economic conditions in two first world countries/cities, prices in Singapore should be comparable to that in the US for a similar make/model and after considering similar prep/service/warranty/overheads (and other factors pertinent to pricing). The price of pianos in the US can be almost objectively accessed via Larry Fine’s MSRP and his recommended percentage for us to take off from that particular MSRP. (please refer to my previous post).

My argument does not include any “weak economy” as a proposition. The weak economy was brought up only as an emphasis on how unreasonable the price was (when viewed in context of the current economy, amongst OTHER factors).

It is exactly because of this equilibrium that we ought to allow consumers access to relevant information prior to purchase, especially when such information would drive the “equilibrium” to the consumer’s favor.

You understand the prices of piano as the product of such competition and equilibrium between demand and supply. Consumer information in turn affects such “demand” in the market.

It is not true that the “only price that really matters (for pianos)” in the real world is so subjective that it can practically be 1 dollar in Hong Kong and $1000 in Vietnam. There is a reference point to work with, as I have reiterated (which you have ignored). Why then do we have MSRPs for pianos in the first place if such “equilibrium” is all that matters for dealers to come up with piano prices?

What really matters is how much the Singaporean dealer wants to make (factoring in the actual cost and MSRP), and if opposed by consumer information, would likely swing the “equilibrium” to make it more “equalized” with the prices in countries of similar economic status.

Point is: MSRPs are quite objective figures which we can acquire from manufacturers. It is not something dealers conjure out of thin air. So, no, prices do have reference points (economic equilibrium notwithstanding).

You wrote, “In Singapore, there is still significant competition across brands, rather than within brands. And a consumer who does his homework, and who really doesn't think the SK is of much value, can very well buy another brand.”

>Well said. I agree. But homework can only be done if relevant information is accessible to potential buyers.

If I would have known that the SKs were priced closely to the C series in Singapore only three years ago, I would have run … from the SKs. I would consider my price a rip-off.

On the other hand – and considering the quality of these pianos – the Grotrian/Sauters are priced similarly to that in the US and other first world countries. That is true 3 years ago; it is still true now in Singapore.

You wrote, “The very fact that Robert was able to sell you the SK at above $40K is proof enough that this is within the range of plausible market clearing prices.”

>Ah, but that is a purchase without access to relevant information. See above, and previous posts. I have reiterated ad infinitum that I wouldn’t have bought the SK if I had known for the better.

You wrote, “In fact, the argument about misinformation/lack of information is a moot point. The dealer is obviously not incentivised to give the consumer information that may place his product at a disadvantage vis a vis the competition. He may, for some reason choose to not to diclose information, which the ignorant consumer may not find relevant or realise the significance.”

>I agree. Such ignorance is perpetuated by the taboo (even in this forum) over piano prices and other “perceived” sensitive business information, and definitely furthered by the belief concerning the subjectivity of piano prices as a victim of some insidious economic equilibrium despite having objective numbers like MSRPs to work with.

You wrote, “Now this is not to say that I condone outright lying/misinformation by the dealer. Dishonest business practices such as these should be exposed. However, outright lying (e.g. telling you that a Bosendorfer is made in China when it is in fact made in Austria - yes I have heard such ridiculous assertions before) is quite different from witholding information (e.g. not telling you that the purchase of the SK does not come with a visit from the MPA). The difference may be subtle, but it is material.”

Agreed. But when asked why there isn’t a visit from the MPA from Japan, he/she implied a personal visit by reiterating that he/she IS an MPA. Isn’t this misleading? No clear answer was ever given as to whether there would be an MPA visit or not. The mantra, “I am an MPA, so don’t you worry” is the reply ad nauseum. Doesn’t this statement (reiterated ad nauseum) IMPLY, “Don’t you worry that the MPA is not visiting you. I am an MPA, and I can help?” But problem is: this “help” is not included in the exorbitant price (unlike the MPA visit).

You wrote, “In the case of the latter, the onus is really on the consumer to do his homework prior to the purchase (through forums such as these).”

>I did. No answer was given. I was actually looking for a Grotrian, but was told there isn’t a dealer in Singapore in this forum (which explains why I never considered one).

You wrote, “He/she can then use whatever information he has gathered as leverage in getting the lowest possible price for the piano he has finally decided on. In this case, you could have asked if the visit by the MPA was included in the purchase price, and if not, use that as a bargaining chip to bring the price down drastically. Or simply walk away from the deal (which is what I did in the end).”

>As I have said, if only I have access to such information.

You wrote, “Information is not going to be dished out on a platter - it requires the consumer to do your homework. Which is why forums such as these exist in the first place.”

>I did. But I would admit that I should have waited longer for you guys (like Digitus and yourself) to turn up. Perhaps it’s time to purchase a second piano (seriously!)?

The SK's are more comparable to the Yamaha S series, not the C series. And I personally prefer the SK's to the S's.

RP's lone MPA never did show up in your home did he! Also, my understanding is that the MPA designation is bestowed by Kawai on a handful of its master craftsmen. One wonder's if Kawai HQ would say, if asked, whether RP's MPA is an SK MPA or a RP MPA?

Hey,

BTW, Happy New Year (tomorrow) to all you Singaporean forum-ers in PW!

"At least Robert Piano managed to finally send you a tech who was able to prep your piano to your satisfaction!"

What prep?

Seriously, it was only a 45min "good" tuning cum minimal voicing.

I do hope to get some good regulation done soon. When the piano arrived, it was able to play ppp reasonably well. Now, I couldn't even get pp without messing out the tone; I think it's the regulation going off (or was it regulated at all by a dealer prep? :rolleyes: Probably factory prep going off. ). I do not 'cheat' with the una corda ...

Anyway, thanks to Digitus and WzKit (and many others) for all the interaction and input. As I have said before, I do blame my impetuosity when making a piano purchase decision (not to my favor, of course!).

I did my research (as best as I could), but obviously more could have been done. And who is to be blamed but myself here

But I always appreciated candid information from forumers who made the effort to PM me and tell me information otherwise not presented in this forum or elsewhere.

I only wished PW would be more candid with "business secrets and taboo prices."

I would probably give Alvin a call once I move to a new place soon ... hahaha!!!

Wasn't that the Omega, or was it a Jaguar?

Well, here's your chance to test the quality of RP's MPA right? He's going to sting your pocket for a visit, but since you are obviously a person of decent financial means it might be worth the cost to find out if RP can really 'do' your SK right.

Not Jaguar hor. Omega = vroom vroom + debt.

New Year Greetings from me too. Try to be happy everday. Time passes faster as you get older. I can vouch for that! :p

take it to Hong Lim Park !!!

ye walk in with open eye

its a honest mistake, lets move on ...

Happy New Year everyone.

ppp, I honestly don't think you should regret purchasing the SK, which I think is a very good piano, even if you do consider the price exorbitant. As Digitus has mentioned, one really shouldn't be comparing the price of an SK-3 with a C3, since the SK-3 was really built to compete with the S series, not the C series.RX series is more akin to the C series, and is priced more competitively.

Considering that, even despite the higher price you may be paying now, you aren't getting a bad deal at all in my opinion. Many forumers have sung high praises of the SKs, and i have been very impressed with specific examples of the SKs (I must admit I was impressed with the pre Millenium 3 action SKs compared to those today - somehow those today are voiced too bright for my tastes, and cannot produce the ethereal pianissimos which I place a very high value on).

Given the above, in the unlikely scenario that the SK-3 could have been purchased for exactly the same price as a C3 three years ago, it would have been considered a piano of exceptional value. Right now, I would still say it represents fairly good value, all things considered.

So no need to fret and waste time and energy feeling unhappy over this. If there're any lessons to be learnt, it should be (1) be PATIENT and REALLY DO YOUR HOMEWORK when buying a piano.

Notwithstanding your complaints about a lack of information, consider my situation three years ago when there was even LESS information than you have now. Unlike now, where you have the benefit of my threads and many others to guide you in your shopping locally, there really was limited information then on the local piano market. And not much about Sauter as well - whether Singapore or from the US.

To make up for that, I spent nearly 8 months in my search, at first seriously considering the SKs, and finally deciding to up my budget and get the Sauter. This was after much careful deliberation, and the final decision to a large part based on my judgement on which dealer would provide better support for my specific needs, as well as my own comfort level with the dealer. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of service levels.

Of course this view is not shared by many others, who would just focus on the headline price, and nothing else. I have a friend who had a great chance to get the Sauter Alpha for near cost price, but instead purchased the SK-3 for slightly lower than you did, based purely on price considerations. She wanted to bring down the price of the Alpha to a level where the dealer would have made a loss - an unreasonable request in my opinion. I'm not quite sure that she realises what she's missing out, which may not be a bad thing if ignorance is bliss. On the other hand, given her attitude, if she's unhappy about her piano now, then its really a case of penny wise and pound foolish!

(2)Learn that the real world of piano pricing (at least as far as Robert Piano is concerned) is far from "objective", "fair" or "reasonable" (indeed the real world outside of pianos seldom is as well!). In this market, its pretty much the law of the jungle, and no amount of complaining on these forums (or anywhere for that matter) is ever going to change that.

I have already explained the reasons why I have doubts as to why I do not think Larry Fine CANNOT be regarded as a universal pricing guide worldwide. Fact is cost structures are different all over the world. If the argument that prices in less developed countries should be lower and vice versa, how do you explain the observation by some forum members that piano prices in Malaysia, with a GDP per capita less than half of Singapore, are substantially higher, even after taking into account exchange rate changes? What about the difference in freight charges? Even within the US, a cursory glance at the forums suggests that there is no universal agreement with Fine's prices - which is at best a gross simplification, or an average of what is likely a wide range of prices within the US. Point is, unless there is a definitive pricing guide for the local market a la Fine, using Fine's pricing guide as the definitive guide could lead you to misleading results. Never underestimate the importance of local factors.

Moreover, even if one can accept that Fine is THE definitive MSRP pricing guide on a GLOBAL basis, given the local conditions, it is very unlikely that dealers would adhere to the prices recommended in Fine, especially when it does not work to their advantage.

A simple question, would you be quoting Fine as much if the prices there did not work to your advantage?

The best one can do is to learn how to deal with it, or better still, work it to YOUR advantage.

Having come to this point, the next logical thing you should do is to find a good tech (not necessarily the Kawai tech)to do the necessary set up and prep for your instrument. Do

On a side note, the most probable reason why the prices of the Yamaha S series have not risen is that they are already priced way too high! A S6 costs $85K. For that price, I could buy a top tier German piano of comparable size! Not surprisingly, demand is probably not stellar, unlike the SKs, where sales have been relatively brisk because of relatively competitive pricing. So whereas strong demand for SKs gives the dealer the pricing power to raise prices, conversely, tepid sales of the S series does not allow Yamaha to raise prices further.

My two cents worth.

Wzkit,

Thanks for your lengthy post on New Years’ Eve.

Now, about your points:

Point 1: To a certain extent, I have conceded that I should do more work, and that is with the benefit of hindsight. Now I DID three months of intensive research and shopping around in almost every piano shop/dealer I can find, not mentioning ASKING around in forums like this one. With regard to the Grotrian, I’d never been to that shop (prior to purchase), not because of my ignorance, but because of misinformation. Calling up the dealer only yielded information on the Chinese pianos, with no hint on sales of Grotrians. As I’m not a fan of Chinese pianos, I chose to pass over that shop. Of course, I should have contacted the boss (Jason), not his henchmen.

I only heard of Sauters in Singapore after my purchase, so that is really my own goal. My bad.

Point 2: I have reiterated my points in previous posts: although piano prices can be raised based upon dealers’ whims – and as how you have aptly put, the laws of the jungle – such a price can be judged as being reasonable/unreasonable based upon:

-The objective MSRP one can acquire from the manufacturer;
-Selling price of similar makes/models in other countries of similar economy;
-The price offered considering the amount of warranty, service and prep given to your piano.

I have emphasized that you shouldn’t compare the price of pianos with third world (or other dissimilar) economies; I never hinted that it would be lower. So perhaps you misread my posts there.

In fact, prices of pianos in certain countries could be further affected by biased/corrupt/unfair practices etc. In other words, that is even more of a jungle out there in such countries. That I’m sure you would know.

I have consistently compared prices with the US, and that is what Fine’s book is based upon. How is that unreasonable? Are the overheads/cost/service any cheaper in the States? Why is the cost of that elusive MPA visit included in the much lower-priced Shigerus in the US, as compared to the price of SK in Singapore?

Singapore: 1/10th of the full warranty offered by Kawai USA, no MPA visit, and no prep makes the Shigerus in Singapore more expensive than the US – a country with obviously much higher cost of living than Singapore? Now that IS unreasonable. Don’t you think so?

We can always say that this is the law of the jungle. I would agree to a certain extent, but how MUCH forums and information do we have to plough through just to glean that one single point we are looking for? How many busy Singaporeans can afford that time? We can always blame the customers/buyers for the lack of research, but do you think that is fair? Even with three months of intensive research (with the WWW and with my legs) I could only acquire so much information, how much less information we would obtain if we can’t afford the time? Without such information, customers aren’t equipped to combat the “laws of the jungles,” if I might say. And why aren’t the laws of the jungle operating in Yamaha, for example? Aren’t Yamahas selling well in Singapore?

How many, for example, know that the C series Yamaha (and the upright models if I’m not mistaken) had remained at the same price even though we continue to assert that prices of pianos increase yearly? And are you sure the C series aren’t sellable? (I’m not comparing the quality of SK with C now; I’m comparing the price increment, and I’m not convinced that SK sells better than the C series Yamaha grands in Singapore). Don’t we all realize that SKs are relatively RARE in Singapore? How many do you think they sold in the last 5 years? 100? More like less than 30?

And the C Yamahas? Since the C series are selling better(?), why then the lack of price increment?

Laws of the jungle again?

Of course, we do not expect such precious information to be spoon-fed to us, unlike our educational system. But honestly, there is no guarantee that information would become available EVEN with prolonged, exhaustive, painstaking and intensive research of any amount of time.

I’m sure you have read my previous posts, which contains an elaboration of the points made here.

Again, have a great new year ahead of you!

WzKit,

Can you PM me the tech you have in mind? Which tech would be able to do an excellent prep?

My dealer's tech would only spend less than an hour, and no more. The time slot allocated to my "free" tunings, I guess How can one do a decent prep in 45 minutes?

I think my SK is out of regulation, as it isn't playing well any more. Dynamic range is poorer, and the paddle work is getting more movement in the keyboard ...

Digitus,

"Well, here's your chance to test the quality of RP's MPA right? He's going to sting your pocket for a visit, but since you are obviously a person of decent financial means it might be worth the cost to find out if RP can really 'do' your SK right."

Er ... at his AGE, do you think his ears are working fine? Haha!

Would that "sting" be put to better use with another tech with better hearing?

Note: The MPA is the boss - you know that, don't you?

Yes I do know who RP's MPA is. I got the same answer as you did when I asked about the MPA visit.

Up until about 1+ year ago he was still tuning pianos in his showrooms and servicing his premium customers, including those in Indonesia. Don't know if he still does. But my point is that if RP claims that there is nothing for you to fear because they have a resident MPA then they must be confident that he can do the work of an MPA. It isn't just about ears, it is also about his ability to properly regulate the action, tune and voice properly.

Edit: To be accurate I've only ever seen him tune SKs. But it would be reasonable to assume that he also eventually gets around to the Steinways and Bluthners.

This is very surprising. How are you controlling the micro-climate around your piano?

Hello people,just want to share my findings. I've gone down to check out the Hailun 125 and I really love what I see. I have been to check out 2nd hand kawais and yamahas at music lodge, been to plaza singapura to check out the new yamahas, and paragon for kawais. I never fell in love with any of the yamahas or kawais, but I did with the hailun. Maybe its just me, being an amateur pianist and all I can't differentiate the quality well.

I am now praying that my husband's business has a good month, upon which he will buy the piano for me !

Thanks alot guys if not for this forum, I would never have check out Hailun and will only have considered Kawai and Yamaha.

The micro-climate around the piano or micro-economy around my pocket?

I put the SK (instead of in my living room which is so much larger) in a music room which is completely sealed 24/7. Dehumidifier is on intermittently to control RH at 50-60%. Temperature is constantly at around 25-27 Celsius (otherwise I shiver ) .

Is there anything I need to amend/do?

To be honest, this piano is literally out of the box with only tunings/MINIMAL voicing done so far (on those notes which I pound on daily). No regulation is ever performed on it by the dealer.

I have heard Kawais having difficulty staying in tune in the first months of arrival. Is that true?

Granted, Pianomaster is a relatively new dealer of Grotrians, and like you, I never had a chance to try a Grotrian (an upright mind you), until very recently. I have been impressed with the performance, though it IS pricier than the Sauter.

But with regards to Sauter, I am honestly surprised that you had never heard of it given my own extensive and lengthy posts about my search from three years ago, as well as the posts of many others. The Sauter dealer may certainly not be a huge one, but given its location (Victoria Concert Hall no less!), any music lover or concert goer would have at least passed by the shop once.

Given your claims to have done three months of "intensive" research, it is therefore frankly quite unbelievable that you had not heard of Sauter prior to your purchase - much more so given the wealth of information on this website. Or is there something more that we don't know about?

If anything, the comparatively small market size AND market structure in less developed economies within this region should serve as a more relevant point of comparison for the Singapore piano market, which is relatively undeveloped as well (despite the economy as a whole being developed). The biggest similarity in all these markets is dealer monopoly for the most well known brands.

Indeed, dealers for some of the most expensive European brands are non-existent in these countries, and consumers simply purchase them from Singapore, with an additional mark up for freight charges, import tariffs and service charges.

In the first place, I don't think the lack of time is a valid reason at all. Everyone, including myself when I went on my own search, suffers from a lack of time. One just has to prioritize and make time for it, if one is serious about getting tbe best possible deal. The information is never going to be readily available, so effort and time has to be expended to get it. Its not question of what's "fair" or not, but simply the reality of the situation.

Moreover, you should have been able to benefit from the prior research and experience of other shoppers (including myself), cutting short the search time.

On the point about cost structure, while labour/service costs are almost certainly higher (perhaps that's what you imply by overheads!) I am quite certain that rents - which are a huge component of any dealer's cost structure - are probably cheaper in the US, outside of the major cities such as New York. I do not have the data now, but perhaps with some luck, may be able to find some data on retail rentals.

In fact, I would not be surprised if some dealers outside major metropolitan areas actually own, rather than rent their premises. This may give them substantial room to bring prices down.

Also you may not be aware that most dealers in the US are able to purchase inventory on credit, unlike dealers in Singapore who have to purchase it using cash. By leveraging, US dealers may be able to accept a smaller margin on the overall initial cost price, whilst still maintaining a decent return on the actual cash downpayment the dealer pays upfront. Such a practice facilitates larger final price reductions, and churning of volume

Here's a simple example. If RP has to pay say $30K upfront for a SK-3 (cost price), add in overheads of $10K, and sells it for $45K, his profit is $5K/40K = 12.5%

But say a US dealer only needs to put a 50% downpayment i.e. $15K on the SK-3, and even assuming the overheads of $10K are the same (unlikely in my view), and sells the product for $35K, his actual profit would still be $10/25 = 40%. He could still slash prices further, or throw in other freebies (including free MPA visits, added service etc).

Note the above example is of course fictitious and the numbers are used for purely illustrative purposes only.

The above example also assumes that the manufacturer sells the pianos to dealers all over the world at the same price - which may not necessarily be the case.

My very simple point is, there is a HUGE myriad of details and factors that are completely hidden within Fine's headline MSRP. Without further knowledge of these details, it is impossible to be sure whether that price is a "reasonable" benchmark of comparison for the Singapore market.

Indeed, the laws of the jungles are applying here!

You have once again chosen to ignore my previous point that the SK series is NOT competing directly with the C series, therefore comparing price levels OR increments are irrelevant!

The SK series is competing with the Yamaha S series, which is priced much higher (a S6 goes for $85K, whereas a SK-6 goes for around $60K). Obviously this gives little room for Yamaha to raise prices on the S series further.

The C series on the other hand is competing not just with the RX series (which I believe is priced marginally lower size for size - probably $3-4K lower), but increasingly with the better Chinese pianos (e.g Brodmann and Hailun), which can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the price. For example, a Hailun HG178 can be had for around $11K, while the 6 footer Brodmann goes for around $17K, versus the C3 price of >30K.

Although there is still a bias against Chinese pianos, forums such as these are raising consumer awareness of such products, particularly the sense that the better Chinese makes may be actually comparable in performance to the C series Yamahas or RX series.

Again, this makes it far more difficult for Yamaha to raise their prices, which were competitive in the "pre-Chinese" era, but are no longer so in today's very different market.

On the other hand, there is little dispute that the Chinese products are not yet at the same level as the SKs and the S series.

Because the SKs occupy a "sweet spot" in terms of the price/performance ratio, RP has considerable room for maneuver here.

I of course don't have numbers, however, anecdotally, the SKs seem to be selling pretty well - certainly enough to qualify the SK as no longer "rare" . I visit RP quite frequently, and notice that the units of the smaller SK-2 and SK-3s are always different each time I visit. Looking at the purchase patterns of my own friends points to the same conclusion. Speaking to the RP salespeople (depending on whether you choose to believe them or not) also suggests that Shigerus are selling well, certainly better than the German makes such as Bluthner, Fuerich etc, which they are designed to compete with.

There is NEVER any guarantee of anything in life (apart from death and taxes). Whether it applies to piano buying or anything else, whether one gets a "good deal", largely depends on the effort put in, skill, and to a certain extent luck as well.

The entire basis of your argument is on the basis of what's reasonable or not. I think that's besides the point. Of course one is entitled to believe that one is unfairly treated, and can spend an inordinate amount of time on these forums complaining about it, but this would not be productive.

A more productive response would to acknowledge the reality and work around it. I would rather spend the energy expended in complaining to reflect, increaing the amount of effort in my next piano search, and strive to improve my "skill level" in piano/dealer is a far more 0pr

On the issue of fairness/reasonableness, I did ask the question if you would be constantly citing Fine's prices if they did not somehow work to your advantage?

What if for example, Fine's prices were higher than what you were quoted, assuming the same level of service/warranty? In this case, if the dealer was using Fine's price list to HIS advantage, would you be willing to pay a higher price than what you were quoted on that basis then, simply because it is deemed "reasonable"?

If the answer to the above question is "no", then the reality is that you are not arguing on the basis of what's "reasonable", but simply for your own advantage, i.e. the Law of the Jungle.

What if a dealer actually showed you his entire cost structure, including cost price (from the manufacturer himself), freight, rentals, overheads etc, and offered to sell you at virtually no profit, would you still argue that it is expensive and try to bring down the price further?

If the answer to the above question is "yes", then the reality is that you are not arguing on the basis of what's "reasonable", but simply for your own advantage, i.e. the Law of the Jungle.

Have a Happy New Year.