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I didn't include the authors for a very specific reason. It played out just as I thought it would. John posts an article from the Left, posing as an unbiased article - purely an opinion piece - and those of you on the left accepted it as gospel. An opinion piece - remember that.

I posted a couple of opinion pieces as well. Instead of paying a *single bit* of attention to what was written, instead of giving it *one ounce* of credibility, everyone on the Left focused on who wrote them. Why? So you could dismiss them as mere "opinion pieces", from a right wing position.

None of you on the left have discussed a single thing written by the conservative authors' articles, in spite of there being quite a bit of information that included names, dates, the same kinds of things John's left wing opinion piece contained. But John's posts are praised as being informative and are accepted as fact, while mine were dismissed out of hand.

You missed one other thing too.... In the middle of *that* little setup, I posted an entire chapter out of Unfit For Command. None of you on the Left have read it, have you? Not a word. If you have, your silence indicates to me that you are afraid to tackle the facts laid out in it. But I think it is something else - I think you simply ignored it. And that's the entire point I intended to make, and I think I've done it well. Those of you on the left pat yourself on the back and tell yourselves you are "enlightened", that you are the "center" politically, that you look at all sides objectively and come to rational conclusions for why you believe the things you do. You just proved that you in fact do not. You trumpet the party line, and ignore, minimize, and dismiss anything you don't agree with as worthless right wing trash without even giving it the slightest look.

Thank you, one and all.

Is this all this just a bunch of junk about whether Kerry is really a "manly man"?Let's get over it -- if had any good sense, he would have avoided committing war crimes like Bush and Cheney did. Instead, he is self-convicted of atrocities.

I mean I'm so impressed that 35 years ago, he blew up a couple of bags of rice, while the U.S. military was dropping WMD on a bunch of peasants.

So brave....so....American.

Shantinik, do you drool much?

At least Bush and Cheney did the "honorable" thing. But if you feel so strongly, and feel you've missed your chance, you can always accompany some of your kids down to the recruiting station....

Knowing the author, and accepting or dismissing the piece can blind you so much. George Will writes about a case involving a murderer's appeal, the majority's opinion, and Justice Scalia's dissent. You may have discussed it years ago, before I started reading this forum. But make a prediction, then go read the article.

you can always accompany some of your kids down to the recruiting station....

You think you're really clever with that line, don't you? You just can't repeat it often enough, you're so certain you have hit on a stroke of genius. I've got news for you - it's a simple minded argument that accomplishes nothing, other than to make you look silly. Stop it. I'm embarrassed for you.

You're a very "manly man". (You can always send an extra large voluntary check so that others can do it for you. )

So are you.

Why, thank you. I'm glad I don't have justify my role in what was among our nation's most despicable adventures.

Forty years since Gulf of Tonkin. Hmmm.

No, you just sit back and enjoy your pacifist life style behind the screen of protection provided by those whom you deride. Rest well.

To be quite honest, JBryan, I see no difference between you and Shant in this regard. You aren't over there fighting either. And if I recall correctly, you have never been in the military either.

(And by the way, I have never heard Shant deride those in the military. He has derided those who send these men and women off to die, but I have not heard him deride the soldiers themselves.)

Larrey,

The book is, as you would call it, "an opinion piece". I would add to your statement by calling it "an opinion piece of **** written by a rich Republican who doesn't support Kerry's tax plan". That book is like Fahrenheit 9/11, only it won't get a hundreth of the publicity, make a hundreth of the money, or swing a hundreth of the voters Fahrenheit 9/11 did. And I doubt it is as truthful. I wouldn't take bribes to read that book. I am thinking about buying a copy and using it as a toilet before burning it page by page (I'll be using gloves). The authors of those articles and the book have no integrity or credibility whatsoever. If the people that were actually ON KERRY'S BOAT have a story conflicting with the people that WERE NOT ON KERRY'S BOAT, then the people who were ACTUALLY THERE are probably right. These people simply hate Democrats and will do anything to keep Kerry from getting elected, even lying about the war. These attacks on Kerry's vietnam record have simply gone too far, but at this point the Bush campaign is so desperate that they aren't denouncing these ads. Well, MOST of the Bush campaign isn't. Cheney isn't. 2004 Bush isn't. 1992 Bush, interestingly enough, denounced negative ads against Clinton in his father's campaign, but has apparently lost integrity over the 12 years. McCain is. Even O'Reilly is (who saw that one coming?)!! Larry, can you for once admit that you're wrong on something or will you keep finding these Republican lies that you call articles for us? If you will just say, "I am not going to vote Democrat no matter what and I support Bush" then I'll respect your opinion and leave it at that. But if you keep on making these distasteful and false attacks on Kerry, then not only will I take you for an idiot, I'll take you for a stubborn and immature idiot. Note that there are no negative ads against the Bush campaign, even though he's killed 15,000 people and his VP committed fraud for his personal gain then left the company so he couldn't get in trouble.

Nice quote John! Where'd you find it?

-Ben

Much Ben D. stuff deleted.

I fear for our country. My only consolation is that I'll be able to ride it out and Ben D. will have to suffer the consequences of his choices.

But if you keep on making these distasteful and false attacks on Kerry, then not only will I take you for an idiot, I'll take you for a stubborn and immature idiot.

You are nothing more than an ignorant kid with a computer. You can take me any way you want.

One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Its a fact of life deal with it. Quit trying to teach the pig to sing

The preceeding applies to both sides of the debate.

No, the difference between me and Shantinik is that I actually appreciate what is being done on my (our) behalf by our men and women in uniform. Shantinik has made his views quite clear in this regard.

I still don't see much of a difference. To me, both of you are safely esconced with no real threat to yourselves. The fact you appreciate that they are killing others in your name and Shant says he did not ask them to go and wishes they would come back and stop killing, is a minor difference when people other than yourself are killing and maiming or being killed or maimed.

I would NEVER deride people in uniform. (I will often deride what they find themselves called upon to do, like dropping WMD on a bunch of farming peasants.) I would encourage people (generally speaking) to think about what they are doing, and act according to their own lights, which may be different from mine. And I would ask anyone to refrain from suggesting that s/he is killing on my behalf. I am a major supporter of military families (my wife is currently heavily involved in planning a series of open gyms for kids who have a parent shipped abroad, and are without resources.)

I will continue to deride those who want killing done in their name, but won't volunteer to do so themselves -- or voluntarily (beyond their required tax share) pay others to do so for them.

As for dying, no one can die for another. That is one great power that (I believe) is reserved to God and God alone.

John,

I have a nephew in Iraq right now. With all due respect you have your head stuck up where the sun doesn't shine.