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#810610 - 03/11/04 05:00 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Jolly Offline
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The highest rate of mortality connected with childbirth, is stated as hemorrhage.

Excuse me, Doctors Pique and KathyK, but would you explain whether that is a direct bleed, or a case of DIC post-partum?


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#810611 - 03/11/04 05:05 PM Re: Best Interests  
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I think I've mentioned that every Saturday I go for a run.

After I've finished the run, I drive down the street to my health club. Along the way, I pass an abortion clinic.

I never feel good about that.

There are a few folks praying in front of the clinic. Sometimes, they are reading scripture. Other times, they may have candles. A month ago, it was 15 degrees below zero with a good wind to make it worse. They were there.

But there are also some people who stand in front of the door to assist the women who wish to use the clinic -- to ensure that they are not vilified.

I am grateful every Saturday that both groups are there.

No I don't support abortion. I abhore it - but I don't want it to be illegal for the costs of that seem worse to me -- back room abortion stuff has little luster for me. In my town, a friend of mine told me how she watched a woman die in a hospital because she was refused treatment following a botched abortion. The hospital personnel did not help her, for this would encourage others...

There is some common ground. That is, I think it is important for young people to THINK about the consequences of their actions. Secondly, I applaud the notion of making it easier for young folks to choose to have a child and put him/her up for adoption.

For parents confronted with the potential of a severely handicapped child, this is between them and God. I would hope that they would pray for guidance - but I do not favor the state eliminating options from them. As an aside, one of my neighbors who has been very active in the pro-life movement at the national level - was confronted with this very dilemma - horrible irony - they followed their precepts and had the baby.

Ken

#810612 - 03/11/04 05:08 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Luke's Dad Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by piqué:

i responded by saying that it is irresponsible to make such statements to women, if true, unless they are put in context. that context being:

1. that early menarche, not breast feeding, early miscarriage, having children late, and a whole host of other things that women may have little control over also cause the same possible correlation between pregnancy loss and breast cancer.

Using the same logic, then my dentist should be telling me to wear my seatbelt, because not wearing it could lead to serious injury or death in an accident; and my chiropractor should be telling me to brush my teeth three times a day with a flouride toothpaste, as improper brushing could lead to cavities, which could lead to an infection which could kill me.

This argument is one odf the most ridiculous I've ever heard coming from somebody whose arguments I've always enjoyed and found very intelligent, even if I disagreed. If a woman is there to have an abortion, the doctor should warn her of the risks of that procedure, period. The other possible causes are irrelevant, as they are not part of the procedure. Another fault with the argument is: abortion is something the woman does have control over (breast feeding as well). It is a choice she is making, not a force of nature, an accident, or just chance.


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#810613 - 03/11/04 05:15 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by kathyk:

So we have death ratio of 9:100,000 with births and 6-11:1,300,000 with abortions.
Actually, the death ratio is 1,300,006 for every 1,300,000 abortions frown .


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#810614 - 03/11/04 05:20 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Lovely post, Ken.

#810615 - 03/11/04 05:39 PM Re: Best Interests  
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:rolleyes:


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#810616 - 03/11/04 05:43 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by apple:
Quote
Originally posted by piqué:
[b] she did support it with stats, apple. read what is in front of your face.
I was thinking maybe there would be abortion stats for the whole 3rd world..not just the abortions that are recorded. [/b]


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#810617 - 03/11/04 05:43 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by Zymtil:
Let me see if I understand what it is that KathyK is preaching:

Point 1: Women need not be told about the possible complications when dealing with abortion because it's possible that if she [b]does not
have an abortion she might die.

Point 2: We really don't need to continue medical research because we already know enough.

[/b]
No, you don't understand. And excuse for being so obtuse and appearing to preach. Allow me to clarify.

To point 1, women should (and I dare say, are) fully informed of the consequences of the procedure before undergoing it and you can be assured that they've signed consent forms up the wazoo indicating as much beforehand. I challenge you to visit any abortion clinic to enquire about the informed consent process.

To point 2, of course research should not be halted. What should be halted are disingenous calls for research in attempt to prove something (which has already been researched to the hilt, BTW) for purely political reasons. Did you read the earlier post, Z, on the masses of research done on the nexus of abortion and breast cancer (the one this guy from Oz seems so bent on proving).

#810618 - 03/11/04 05:48 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Quote
Originally posted by kathyk:
[b]
So we have death ratio of 9:100,000 with births and 6-11:1,300,000 with abortions.
Actually, the death ratio is 1,300,006 for every 1,300,000 abortions frown . [/b]
Damn straight. Lots of killing, lots of killing.

Happy kathy? happy pique? Feel better?

Personally, I wouldn't use capital letters in my name if I were you guys either. I'd just feel that small.

I would just feel that small. frown

#810619 - 03/11/04 05:59 PM Re: Best Interests  
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My position and related question:

(1) As a matter of principle, a patient considering abortion must be informed of the risks involved. As a matter of implementation, regulators and insurance companies would likely draw up a list of risk items that doctors and counselors must discuss with their patients. Additional items may be discussed as time, resources, patient's particular situation, and patient's comprehension capacity permit.

Question related to (1): Of all the risks involved with pregnancy and artificially induced abortion, is breast cancer down the line big enough a risk to be included in that required list or risk items?

(2) As a matter of principle, yes, we can always use more medical study to help us understand better the consequences of the choices we may have to make.

Question related to (2): As a matter or implementation, if we are talking about using limited public funds to finance the medical study, given what we know now, is the study of abortion-breast cancer link important enough among all studies that could be funded to warrant funding?

Stated another way: In the grand scheme of things, from what we know now, is breat cancer risk (as it relates to artificially induced abortion) practically big enough a deal to warrant mandatory disclosure and publically funded research?

I have not the knowledge to address either question. I suppose practicing physicians, counselors, and NIH funding proposal reviewers would be more qualified to address such questions. I look forward to reading your comments.

#810620 - 03/11/04 06:16 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
(1) As a matter of principle, a patient considering abortion must be informed of the risks involved. As a matter of implementation, regulators and insurance companies would likely draw up a list of risk items that doctors and counselors must discuss with their patients. Additional items may be discussed as time, resources, patient's particular situation, and patient's comprehension capacity permit.
There is the ideal, and then, there is the real world.

It is not germaine to this conversation, since abortion is not a sought after surgery by the residents when notching one's OB checklist, but those of you convinced of all the in-depth discussion of surgical complications with the patient, leave me grinning.

Particularly, residents tend to stalk their prey at night, in hospital ERs. Have symptoms similar to those requiring a cholecystectomy? They're gonna rip that sucker out, and the explanation will be cursory, at best, if they need another operation or two, to complete their quota.

When you signed those mortgage papers, did you actually read all that stuff?

Same thing in the hospital, folks.

If anything comes up, you signed it. wink


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#810621 - 03/11/04 06:26 PM Re: Best Interests  
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The horror of our race appears
and rears it's ugly head,

"Sorry baby -hold your tears,
no life for you before you're dead".


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#810622 - 03/11/04 06:30 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by apple:
The horror of our race appears
and rears it's ugly head,

"Sorry baby -hold your tears,
no life for you before you're dead".
You are great. I'm lucky just to know you.

#810623 - 03/11/04 06:46 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Jolly wrote: "... but those of you convinced of all the in-depth discussion of surgical complications with the patient, leave me grinning. ... If anything comes up, you signed it."
Sounds plausible enough. That be the case, there really is no point to bother with either the research or the risk disclosure thereof. There goes another 100+ posts in the Coffee Room. wink

#810624 - 03/11/04 06:48 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
By kathyk: To point 2, of course research should not be halted. What should be halted are disingenous calls for research in attempt to prove something (which has already been researched to the hilt, BTW) for purely political reasons. Did you read the earlier post, Z, on the masses of research done on the nexus of abortion and breast cancer (the one this guy from Oz seems so bent on proving)
Yes, I read the post (it had some valid points). However, in the original article (the one that kick off this whole thread) there was no reference as to what exactly was to be researched (it didn't mention breast cancer once). Here's the first paragraph of the article (just in case you didn't actually read it):

Quote
Last week, Senator Sam Brownback (R., Kan.) sponsored hearings in the Senate to review the impact of abortion on women and, ultimately, to call for greater research. Note well, this was not intended to be an abortion debate. Rather, it was meant to offer a close look at the effects, positive or negative, of abortions on the women who have them.

#810625 - 03/11/04 07:21 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Doggone it. If you insist on relevance to the original topic, then we may need to ask you to leave. Besides, the uproar resulting from this suggestion completely ignored that statement of purpose and immediately turned a question that might help women into an attack on women by anti-abortionists.


Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as heck...
#810626 - 03/11/04 07:53 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by kluurs:
a friend of mine told me how she watched a woman die in a hospital because she was refused treatment following a botched abortion. The hospital personnel did not help her, for this would encourage others...
Ken, this simply does not sound, uh, believable, not to mention legal. Are you sure you have her story correct?
Quote
I applaud the notion of making it easier for young folks to choose to have a child and put him/her up for adoption.
This is all it takes. There are simply not enough babies to go around, so why kill them?
Quote
one of my neighbors who has been very active in the pro-life movement at the national level - was confronted with this very dilemma - horrible irony - they followed their precepts and had the baby.
Do you believe these things are simply coincidence? Possibly, possibly not. I don't believe this is necessarily "chance." It happened to me as well. smile


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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#810627 - 03/11/04 09:16 PM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
Quote
Originally posted by kluurs:
[b] a friend of mine told me how she watched a woman die in a hospital because she was refused treatment following a botched abortion. The hospital personnel did not help her, for this would encourage others...
Ken, this simply does not sound, uh, believable, not to mention legal. Are you sure you have her story correct?
Quote
I applaud the notion of making it easier for young folks to choose to have a child and put him/her up for adoption.
This is all it takes. There are simply not enough babies to go around, so why kill them?
Quote
one of my neighbors who has been very active in the pro-life movement at the national level - was confronted with this very dilemma - horrible irony - they followed their precepts and had the baby.
Do you believe these things are simply coincidence? Possibly, possibly not. I don't believe this is necessarily "chance." It happened to me as well. smile [/b]
In reference to the first quote gryphon cited:

The other day, an august member of this board talked about commitment to healing, and compared it to just another job. You take the king's shekel, and you do the king's bidding.

By those of us who wear the white coats, this is/was a laughable position. By job, by training, by temperment, it is not only what we do, it is what we are.

In any great communicable disease, among the first graves, are those who contain the medical people who attend their patients. And we fight, until we can conquer, corral, or abate that which we fight.

If we can't succeed, we die in place.


Yeah, it's just another job.


A job where it is utterly impossible to imagine any standing idly by, with hands in scrubsuit pockets, watching somebody die.


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#810628 - 03/11/04 09:45 PM Re: Best Interests  
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God bless you Jolly, my wife Chris, Dr. John (my new name for you), Ed, katie, and those like you all in the medical profession. [Linked Image]


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#810629 - 03/12/04 12:52 AM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by DT:
Doggone it. If you insist on relevance to the original topic, then we may need to ask you to leave. Besides, the uproar resulting from this suggestion completely ignored that statement of purpose and immediately turned a question that might help women into an attack on women by anti-abortionists.
laugh laugh wink
Your right, and for now, I will now take my leave of absence (I will return someday). I love you all and respect all of your opinions. Goodnight and good luck to all of you. Here's a little something to remember me by (in the case I don't return):

"Prevention of birth is a precipitaion of murder" - Tertullian

"No woman can call call herself free until she can choose consciously whether she will or will not be a mother." - Margaret H. Sanger

"However we may pity the mother whoes health and even life is imperiled by the performance of her natural duty, there yet remains no sufficient reason for condoning the direct murder ot the innocent" - Pius XI

"A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on." - Carl Sandburg

"Blood will tell, but often it tells too much" - Don Marquis

"Peace, above all things, is to be desired, but blood must sometimes be spilled to obtain it on equable and lasting terms" - Andrew Jackson

good night and good luck.

#810630 - 03/12/04 01:43 AM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by katie:
KathyK,
Awesome analyses ..... with rapid delivery ..... You have a mind like the edge of a scalpel.
Yeah...... thin.

The problem with her "awesome analyses" is....

it's wrong.

As usual, she went to those places that are sympathetic to her views to get her "facts". The net result is erroneous data. For instance - Tom keeps trying to point out the time frame difference between getting pregnant and having an abortion, and getting pregnant and having a baby. He's on the right track, but the difference is even more pronounced than that. Kathy's figures that claim to support the view that it is safer to have an abortion than to have a baby are skewed, because not only does it cover the longer period of time, but also includes any related death within one year after delivery.

We have a lawyer and a journalist ridiculing a medical doctor, quoting statistics from Planned Parenthood, a biased, pro-abortion organization to support their claims of being more knowledgable about this subject than a doctor. Let\'s take a rational look at the subject from the other side of the fence. I believe you will find the facts to be thoroughly vetted and documented, and Kathy's data to be mostly slanted toward the pro-abortionist's view.

Take some time to click on the various pages on the site - you'll even find Johnny Moonlight's remarks on abortion and breast cancer covered. You'll also find, much to the chagrine of Kathy and Pique, that his information is right on the money.

You see, this is an example of why I say that liberals can't think for themselves. Kathy takes statistics she gets from Planned Parenthood that have practically no verifiable documentation to support them, and quotes the statistics given as fact. Since it sounds so "official", and I suppose because of her "rapid delivery" or these "statistics", all the other liberals jump in and congratulate her on her "awesome analysis", not once questioning her "facts" or checking to see if they're accurate.

But wouldn't you know it....... us stupid old conservatives just won't go along with the program...... we have to go mess it all up by bringing up ridiculous stuff like.......

facts......


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#810631 - 03/12/04 01:58 AM Re: Best Interests  
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as usual larry, you present a highly slanted web site with the same agenda you believe in as if it is unbiased. why do you always do this? that info is from an anti-abortion website. the stats kathy and i quoted come from the center for disease control, not exactly a "pro-abortion" organization.

i'm really curious now: why do you present this stuff and then announce that it is "right on the money?" because it is what you want to believe? or do you have some kind of secret insider info that nobody else has? and how exactly have you verified that what this organization says is correct?

i like you, larry, and i never cease to be mystified as to why you latch onto stuff like this and call it the truth.


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#810632 - 03/12/04 02:09 AM Re: Best Interests  
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as usual larry, you present a highly slanted web site with the same agenda you believe in as if it is unbiased. why do you always do this? that info is from an anti-abortion website. the stats kathy and i quoted come from the center for disease control, not exactly a "pro-abortion" organization.

1. I believe you will find that I said "let's look at this from the other side of the fence", acknowledging that it is from a pro-life position. The stats Kathy is quoting from, if you'll click on the link she gave, is not from the CDC, but directly from Planned Parenthood. Are you aware that Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the country? You don't think *their* "stats" are biased too?


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#810633 - 03/12/04 02:28 AM Re: Best Interests  
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well, i must have not clicked on all of kathy's links. however, i read the same stats she presented on the cdc website, so very likely that is where planned parenthood got them from.

yes, i am aware that planned parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the country. they are also a non-profit, and the majority of their work is providing reproductive health care to people who otherwise couldn't afford it, are uninsured, or wouldn't seek it out. they do a great deal of good, especially for millions of young people over the years who without pp might not have had access to birth control and reproductive wellness exams. i went there myself for those services as a 17 year old college freshman, and they made a very big difference in my life, so, i think highly of the organization and, if i remember correctly, as a non-profit they do not make money on providing abortions and so have no incentive to "push" them, as has been implied that some private clinics do.

in my community they have worked tirelessly to educate young people about AIDS. providing abortions is a part of what they do, but not most of what they do.


piqué

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#810634 - 03/12/04 03:27 AM Re: Best Interests  
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Quote
Originally posted by piqué:

yes, i am aware that planned parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the country...if i remember correctly, as a non-profit they do not make money on providing abortions and so have no incentive to "push" them, as has been implied that some private clinics do.
Dear pique,

I can't honestly believe that you don't know what a nonprofit organization is.

Of course they make money, silly, and piles of it providing abortions and whatever else they are hawking--they just don't show a "profit" to their shareholders at the end of the year. A non profit is just another way to set up a corporation. They make more money EVERY time the provide an abortion and LESS money when they don't. A nonprofit is a business just like any other.

Just because most charities are nonprofits doesn't mean that every non profit is a charity. Far from it.

And even if (and this is a big "if") Planned Parenthood doesn't make money for itself--it promote others making money--that's what Associations do. Nonprofit Associations "push" their members products all the time. Why? Because they just like to? Because it's fun? NO! They do it to make money!

pique, when you venture into the area of medicine you have an MD telling you don't know what your talking about, when you venture into the area of business you have a businessman saying you don't know what your talking about...tell me the truth, are you seeing the same disturbing trend that I'm seeing? frown

#810635 - 03/12/04 05:09 AM Re: Best Interests  
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Tommy, I like your style. Excellent points Larry and Jolly.

Now, to the brain-dead liberals; do a little research today. In fact, Pique, I'm sending you out on assignment. Look up the following terms and I want to see a report, first thing Monday morning.

LATENT MORBITITY RELATED TO ABORTIONS
*ILLEGAL* ABORTIONS


Now I'm off to a peaceful slumber.


While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.
#810636 - 03/12/04 07:51 AM Re: Best Interests  
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Maine
This thread has definitely taken a sharp right turn toward the absurd and the nasty. Why should I be surprised? But arguing over what charity vs. non-profit?? In usual fashion, te right-wing alpha males form their pack and beat down the liberal thinkers - and an extra one-two if they happen to be female. Funny that John's word it taken to be end-all here because he's an MD - even though gynecology is not his area or practice. I remember awhile back when Jolly was in my face on an estate planning thread (Which IS my area of expertise) and pretending to know more than I. None of you cavaliers uttered a peep. No, it's clearly very disconcerting for you to deal with smart women.

Planned parenthood may well be the largest provider of abortions in the country, but they do a heck of a lot more than that. They are probably also the largest preventer of unwanted pregancies, and their mission is driven by that ideal. They are in the communties pushing sex education to prevent not only unwanted pregancies, but spread of STDs, they provide family planning counseling and birth control pregnancy testing and counseling
gynecological care, Pap tests, breast exams
emergency contraception HIV testing and counseling medically accurate sexuality education
screening and treatment for sexually transmitted infections, infertility screening and counseling
voluntary sterilization for women and men
reproductive medical exams for men,safer sex counseling, midlife services,prenatal care, adoption referrals and evven primary care. To label them as some profit driven organization, pushing abortions to feather their (whose? the CEO - I trust they make less than most private cos' CEOs) is not only vicious, but specious.

#810637 - 03/12/04 07:53 AM Re: Best Interests  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,478
DT Offline
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DT  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,478
Illinois
Quote
Originally posted by piqué:
especially for millions of young people over the years who without pp might not have had access to birth control
All people (excluding victims of true rape) have access to free birth control. It's called abstinence.


Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as heck...
#810638 - 03/12/04 08:11 AM Re: Best Interests  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Tom--K Offline
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Tom--K  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,934
Quote
Posted by kathy with a k: the CEO - I trust they make less than most private cos' CEOs) is not only vicious, but specious.
I would hope to see you post some phoney statistics on that real soon. :p

#810639 - 03/12/04 08:29 AM Re: Best Interests  
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
kathyk Offline
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kathyk  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,971
Maine
Quote
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
Quote
Posted by kathy with a k: [b]the CEO - I trust they make less than most private cos' CEOs) is not only vicious, but specious.
I would hope to see you post some phoney statistics on that real soon. :p [/b]
You are great. I'm lucky just to know you.

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