Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out

Tom
Please requote me.
I edited.

Kenny I fully appreciate what you are saying and that you and I share the same disgust and revulsion to what has happened.

But I should like to say that evil does not exist on a scale of one to ten. Evil is absolute. The slaughter of Native Americans, the Nazi Holocaust, the Stalinist Terror, 9/11 and now this are all cut from the same cloth. Whether it was one Jew who perished because of his/her race or 6,000,000. There is no difference they all perished because the rationale of evil (Nazi ideology and its Final Solution) determined they were subhuman Jews and must die. That is hate and hate is evil.

Manifest Destiny on the other hand was not in itself evil. Manifest Destiny was a stated policy that recognized the US should expand westward and settle unclaimed territories- okay, Aboriginal lands- and stop at the shore of the Pacific Ocean. The evil that came out of Manifest Destiny in the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Natives, was the work of essentially lawless adventurers, corrupt state and territorial officials and eventually, a few racist Generals. Sherman, Miles and Custer come immediately to mind- all three former Union generals in the War of Northern Aggression or Civil War.

This breaks my heart...makes me wonder if I should bring children into this world. To have them be faced with something like this, it is just too cruel.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com

Kenny - The case of the Native Americans is different from the others - Hitler, and Islamic terrorism. Human beings innately have a desire to propagate and economically develop. America before European invasion was a large fertile landmass supporting a few hundred thousand people. Now it supports 300 million. Nowhere in the world has a traditional culture that takes a lot of land to support a small number of people withstood the natural human desire to expand and develop. This is a tragedy for all traditional peoples, but there was also no way to prevent it. Human being will naturally expand their society productively. Germany did not need to kill 6 million or so Jews to develop a numerous and economically prosperous society. Nor will killing Israeli, or Russian or American schoolchildren expand the population or economy of the Arab world. This is simply scapegoating others for the Muslim/Arab world's internal failures.

What they did was 100% wrong.
But, I *do* wonder why they did it.
Not that any reason could justify it, I just wonder why they did it.

Wondering why they did it is not an exclusive thing to liberals. You are missing the whole point. Sure, I wonder why they did it. But I'm not going to turn that wonder into a negotiation. Why did they do it? Wonder all you want. But kill them, and do it in a way that makes others like them think twice before they do it again.

Maybe only a liberal would wonder.
The conservatives would be quick to think only of justice, revenge, punishment.
Hunt them down, kill them all.
But you can't kill a cause.

Really? I can think of several causes that were killed. The Nazi cause was essentially killed. Imperialism in Japan was effectively killed. Slavery was killed in the US (only to be replaced by the slavery of welfare).

Conservatives are more likely to be hard; they won’t listen to what the purpose of this group is.

That's because their purpose does not justify what they did. Finding out what their purpose is won't stop them, because what they want may not be something they can have. If they have a cause they want addressed, they had better ways of addressing those they have issues with. Why do you insist that the civilized world not hurt a flea when *they* have an issue or a cause they deem important but the fanatics they have to deal with won't listen, but think we should take the time to find out why *they* are upset?

Raising the issue of what happened a hundred years ago, or 2 or 3 hundred years ago, is a strawman. Sure, the Native Americans were treated horribly. Sure, someone should have gone to the aid of the Indians. Sure, those who did the horrible things that were done to the indians deserved to be shot on sight, ask questions later. But they weren't. No one did. And it's history. Now - learn from history. Don't bring up the evil that was done to American Indians as a way to argue against the position of hunting down today's terrorists and killing them for the crimes they commit. All you do is make the conservative case - no one saved the Indians when they should have. No one stopped the murderers who set out against them. Someone should have. They should have done it without wondering why they were killing all the indians, or sitting down and talking with them to find out what it is they wanted. We know what they wanted. Someone should have gotten together and fought to save them, without wasting one second wondering "why". All that was needed to be known was that they were killing innocent indians by the tens of thousands. That's what we should be doing now. We shouldn't be wondering why terrorists are killing people, we should be hunting down the terrorists and killing them wherever we find them, with absolutely no concern for "why". "Why" isn't important. Stopping them from killing people is what's important. You won't stop their killing by learning "why" any more than you would have stopped the advancement of Europeans across America by asking them "why".

You raise some interesting points, but they all come from the "touchy feely" viewpoint that is fine for disagreements between two civil people, but that will get lots of people killed when the reality of mankind comes into play.

kenny's right. We will never make headway if we don't ask why.

Any one of us, brought up in a very different culture, might have been a terrorist. If we only kill products of a certain mentality, the mentality survives. If we set an example of understanding and generosity, perhaps by spending billions of dollars on aid instead of war, just maybe the mentality will be shaken.

He's being an ass because nobody's vilifying him.

We get little too much of his "persecution complex" for my taste. This is a coffee room of a piano forum--not a Psych 101 board for the unloved.

And kenny, I like you.

Kenny, Eusebius - Actually, understanding "why" Islamic terrorists murder schoolchildren will reinforce the idea that they need to be killed, not negotiated with. They kill and torture children because they see non-Muslims (or in this case Muslims who aren't "Muslim" enough) as infidels to be killed and slaughtered as a religious commandment. This is what the Al Qaida documents and theory books teach (see here: www.memri.org ).

They don't see murding children as a tactic to achieve a political goal (like grabbing a hostage to get a ransom). They see the mass murder and torture of infidels as a positive good in and of itself morally praiseworthy (like Hitler saw killing Jews as a positive good, not just a way to extort money from the Jewish community). You and other liberals seem to assume that Islamic terrorists commit acts of violence for the reasons you imagine might provoke you to acts of violence - poverty, human rights etc. But the motives of Islamic fascists are quite far from that of a US liberal. It is not only liberals who ask "why" Islamic terrorists commit murder, but it does seem to be only conservatives who get the answer right and know how to act accordingly.

Great idea Eusebius. Let's pay bribes and protection money to get them to stop. :rolleyes:

The terrorists' actions prove you wrong.

Or we can just dispense with the terrorists. Probably cost just about the same and it's more fun.

Life moves on. Some people are winners and some losers. Islamic terrorists are losers: why give them or their kind a warm fuzzy feeling before they are expunged. Islam is the last stronghold of the dark ages, it is time to move on--Christianity has, either Islam must or they must be distroyed. I don't think there is any comprimise--and that would be their choice.

Western society is taking over. Everybody wants jeans and CD's and gum and beer--and democracy. You just can's stop those things.

Listen: We don't have to negotiate with Islam--they need to negotiate with us.

Something in me has turned...

It is so much easier to see things in black and white, good and bad, as they do. A part of me now wants to do it, another part keeps turning back thinking there must be another way.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com

We need to be smart about it, as I've said in another thread. The terrorists are cold and calculating. We need to be shocked, angry, vengeful, but we need to be as cold and calculating as they are. Blasting them off the face of the earth in anger, though very appealing, may not by itself help us achieve our long term goal: no terrorism. Some combination of education, coercion, brainwashing, manipulation, propaganda, what have you, must occur as well.

As lucian said in another thread, we must fight this war on many fronts. Military absolutely, but also we need to stop the production line for terrorists, and I'm not sure that will be a 100% military solution.

Nina I believe that there is a multilateral/multifront war being waged. The military aspect gets all the press coverage, but the bulk of the iceberg is beneath the water. Internationally, police and intelligence forces are cooperating on a unprecedented scale. Diplomatic efforts are being waged at all levels. Even industry is showing signs about the way it does business internationally. For the past several months the I have noticed the Saudis and other Arab states agressively promoting business opportunities in their countries. They are coming to the hard realization that since 9/11 Western companies have been pulling up stakes and abandoning the market. In the past year this departure has become a hemorrage as Western businesses sell of their investments and many refuse to quote tenders in the region. I know of one fellow who attended a biomedical conference and trade show this spring and said that it was down to 15% of its former attendence. People are simply refusing to go and do business with them, not so much out of fear but rather out of disgust in their refusal to address their own culpability in aiding and abetting Islamic Terrorism.

I must admit to being totally at a loss for words to express my horror at the events that unfolded at that school. Its like reading the words, and saying, surely this could not, did not, really happen. Man's inhumanity to fellow human beings can not have stooped this low. Yet I know it has.

I must agree with those who mention the punishment that has been doled out by European countries to those who committed acts of terrorism is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. If they shy away from the death penalty, then the least they can do is lock these people away for life, with no chance for parole. And I do mean ANYONE, committing or abetting acts of terrorism. They are one and the same. Harsh penalties need to be in place.

The practical side of me says that this fight against Islamic terrorism, isn't going to be defeated solely by military means. It just isn't possible. Witness Iraq. We must find a better way.

I do not believe as Bush would have us believe that democracy (as we understand it) of the middle east or other parts of the world is necessarily the cure-all either. Real democracy can yield prosperity, or famine; tyrany, or liberty as long as the majority rules, with no consideration for the minorities.

Like some others, I also must ask. How did the people who commit these acts, come to have this much hatred? How did they come to have such a lothing of life, of their's and others?

Renauda: You have no idea how happy your post made me. I think this is the defining battle of our generation (or perhaps for several generations). It is literally the battle for humanity and civilization v anarchy. It will require an all-out campaign, on every front.

You're probably right, we hear only of the military conquests and the horrible failures (like that in Beslan). If it's a case of "money talks," then let's take it all away. All business efforts to countries that support terrorism, as others have proposed. No "lesser of two evils" arguments.

Nina, and Renauda,

While I agree that "money talks". I can't see how realistically that taking away our money from countries in the middle east, at least, by not purchasing their oil is viable when we depend so heavily on it for our own economic stability.

Granted, that weening ourselves from foreign oil is an admirable goal, but realistically how close are we to doing that? While Europe has consistently reduced its consumption, the US has consistently raised its consumption.

Take that a bit further, and ask what if we do reduce consumption? What will happen to these countries in the middle east?

No ideas. Just all questions.

Bcarey says: "Like some others, I also must ask. How did the people who commit these acts, come to have this much hatred? How did they come to have such a lothing of life, of their's and others?"

This is the version of Islam that Saudia Arabia and others teach in their schools. It is supported by a culture that has little else to offer young people, given its general economic and cultural backwardness, and its need to blame others for their own failure, rather than take responsibility for their own actions and fate in the world. It is highly linked with xenophobia and hatred towards Israel and Jews (a typical scapegoat). Since the governments and newspapers and mosques of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Egypt and others have promoted and justified murdering Israeli schoolchildren for decades, it is no surprise that these views have metasthesized and are now acted on elsewhere in the world.

I agree what we should have a more coherent energy policy. Some electric cars and alternative energy scources and then let's see how important the middle east's oil is. We should be separating from our dependence on this natural rescource pronto, but neither Bush nor Kerry have the political will to do so.

The Spanish seem to finally be cracking down on recording and film piracy after they realized that this is what had funded the Madrid train bombings.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com

What did or did not happen to the Native Americans generations ago has nothing at all to do with the phenomenon of Islamic fascism which, like Nazism, seeks world domination. The Nazis defined other as "subhuman" hence justifying wholesale murder. Islamic fascism glories in the murder of innocent "infidels", including, without hesitation, children. By the standards of their primitive religious teachings, Islamic fascists believe their systematic slaughter of innocent people is a holy act which buys them an entry ticket into a paradise of endless sexual ecstacy with heavenly virgins. These are demented people. Eventually these primitive barbarians may succeed in sudden mass murder on an unparalleled scale. Many who have studied this phenomenon feel it is inevitable that these people will succeed in detonating a nuclear device in a metropolitan setting, G-d forbid. There should be no question in anyone's mind that they will do it if they can find the means. No amount of attempting to understand their issues will make a speck of difference.