Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Ad
Schumann's 4th Finger
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved
Who's Online
102 registered (ajames, alphonsus, Akarukun, 36251, apassionata, Adypiano, 25 invisible), 1435 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#807190 - 09/06/04 08:02 AM Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
From the (UK) Sunday Mirror:

THE full horror of the Russian school atrocity began to emerge yesterday as traumatised children told horrific tales of stabbed babies and brutal rapes.

It has also emerged that scores of the 323 who died - including many children - had been shot in the back.

While despairing soldiers and rescue workers moved among the growing pile of body bags, it was revealed that an 18-month-old baby had been repeatedly stabbed by a black-clad terrorist who had run out of ammunition.

Other survivors told how screaming teenage girls were dragged into rooms adjoining the gymnasium where they were being held and raped by their Chechen captors who chillingly made a video film of their appalling exploits

They said children were forced to drink their own urine and eat the petals off the flowers they had brought their teachers after nearly three days without food or water in the stifling hot gym.

Their stories came as Russian officials warned that the final death toll of the siege of Middle School No 1 at Beslan in North Ossetia - in which up to 1,200 people were held captive - was likely to be more than 400.

The official toll yesterday stood at 323 which included 156 children, 10 Russian soldiers and two emergency service workers - 35 of the hostage-takers were also killed. Last night 434 people were being treated in hospital with 247 children and 85 adults in a critical condition.

A Russian official said six seriously injured children had been taken to Moscow for treatment.

"One of them is a child, just 18 months old, with many knife wounds," he said.

The Chechen terrorists - including two so-called "Black Widows" - had been meticulously planning the hostage-taking for months.

High explosives and ammunition had been smuggled into the building during the summer by rebels disguised as workmen.

A shocking account of the siege has come from Indira Dzetskelova, the mother of 12-year-old Dzerase who was guarded by two women suicide bombers during the siege. She said: "On the first day they shot a man before my daughter's eyes. They frightened the kids by saying that water in the tap was poisoned.

"The famished children had to eat rose petals from bouquets which they specially bought for their teachers to mark the first day of term. Parents who were also captured had to feed their kids with all the window plants.

"After they ate all the petals, my daughter said that she started to nibble the rose plants.

"She told me that several 15-year-old girls were raped by terrorists. She heard their terrible cries and screams when those monsters took them away."

Her traumatised daughter Dzerase sobbed as she added: "When the assault started, some of us were running out through the school dining room.

"We had to run across and jump over dead bodies. Can I ever forget it? Is it possible that one day I will forget it?

"The terrorists started to shoot from the roof, then one of them ran into the dining room and started to shoot from the window.

"I saw kids and women falling to the ground. And I saw that vermin's face. I saw his smile as he killed my friends."

Diana Gadzhieva, 14, was held with her sister Akinba, aged 11. She told how the rebels executed all the adult men in a room upstairs and how she was forced to lie face down on the gym floor.

She said: "There was not enough space for us and we were lying on top of each other. The rebels needed paths to walk around the gym. They shouted they would shoot anyone whose arm or leg was across their paths.

"They also said they would kill anyone who looked up.

"We saw groups of men hostages going out and never coming back."

She also told of the moments when the bloody firefight started and how the rebels triggered a series of explosions inside the gym.

Diana said: "There was terrible panic and a few boys jumped out of the windows. My sister and I did not want to run out - we were scared of being shot.

"But then the second explosion happened and something heavy fell down on us. I saw children around me lying in blood and not moving.

"Just next to me there was a woman covered in blood. She was dead. I also saw many arms and legs, torn from bodies.

"All the bombs were connected with cords and started blowing up one after another, getting closer and closer to us.

"I took Alina's hand and we ran to the window and jumped out. We were running as quickly as possible - our backs were terribly hot from the fires."

Zalina Vazagova, 13, also told of the terrifying moment when a bomb exploded in the gym ceiling.

She explained: "I heard a terrible crack above my head and closed my eyes. When I opened them, I thought I was dead. There was so much blood around me.

"One granny was lying with a hole in her head. My PE teacher, Ivan Konstantinovich's body hit my leg.

"All the kids were crying, 'Please don't shoot! Please don't kill us'. But the rebels did not listen to us.

"Then I saw an open window and just jumped out. My little sister Lena was left inside there." And sobbing, she added: "I don't know if she's alive. She was only ten."

Survivors say the gymnasium and surrounding corridors had been rigged with at least 18 bombs, connected by cables and trip wires.

Two bombs were placed in the hoops of basketball nets and at either ends of the gymnasium.

A "Black Widow" is thought to have blown herself up in front of more than 1,000 hostages, prompting the deadly fire-fight and triggering a further serious of explosions inside the gymnasium.

At least three rebels were thought to have been captured alive in the school's basement - but were later said to have died.

One disguised herself as a teacher leading children to safety. She was apparently shot dead seconds before trying to blow herself up in a nearby hospital.

Another was apparently shot dead and beheaded by his comrades for trying to surrender.

_________________

WE HAD TO DRINK OUR URINE

HOSTAGE Sima Albegova told how the Chechen rebels became angry when they heard President Vladimir Putin was not visiting the school.

Sima, a school cook, said: "The terrorists treated the kids well during first day, they did let them drink and go to toilet.

"But right after they found out that Putin was not coming, they forbade the kids from going to the toilet.

"We asked them, 'Why are you doing this to us?' They said it was because we voted for Putin.

"And they said he doesn't care about you. He won't even come here to talk to us."

By Friday morning conditions were so bad that people could hardly breathe.

She added: "Most of kids were almost unconsciousness. Those who could move started to pee into shoes and then drink urine.

"They would make several sips of urine and then would stop and cry because their lips were chapped and the urine stung their skin.

"I would run to the terrorists and asked them to let kids drink.

"They said, 'Go away, they'll survive'. But so many of them have not."

_________________

MY LITTLE BOY WAS LEFT TO DIE

A YOUNG mother told how she was released early with her two-month-old daughter - but her five-year-old son was forced to stay.

Salimat Suleimanova said: "I begged them on my knees to let me take Shamil out with me, but they wouldn't - now I don't know where he is.

"It was his first day at school."

She is overwhelmed by guilt for coming out with her baby daughter.

"They didn't allow me to go back and say goodbye to my little boy," she said.

She added: "So many children lay unconscious without food and water. Occasionally the rebels took those out, poured water onto their heads and threw them back."

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#807191 - 09/06/04 08:16 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Dwain - In other threads some liberals think we should negotiate with such people. Unbelievable. This is similar to the way Hitler treated Jews in concentration camps. Islamic terrorists should meet the same fate as Hitler, and soon. The sooner the world sees this and stops trying to appease and negotiate the better.

Top
#807192 - 09/06/04 08:23 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Like I've said before - hunt them down, shoot them dead, and wrap their bodies in bacon. Show pictures of every single dead Muslim terrorist wrapped in bacon. Send it to every mosque in the world. Tell the leader of every mosque that you're sending spies to listen to what he teaches his flock. If he teaches anything even remotely akin to fighting, you are going to come and kill *him* - and wrap him in bacon.

They should start today.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#807193 - 09/06/04 08:33 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Jeffrey, I deliberately started a new thread for this, so the story of Beslan doesn't get bumped out of people's minds. I even thought about posting some of the most grisly of photos coming out of the town, to drive home the point of the evil of the terrorists, and that they are not to be "negotiated with" - but I decided against it. The words are bad enough.

Top
#807194 - 09/06/04 08:41 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
I was on vacation (to Rome and Naples) for a week and missed some of the threads. If anything good could possibly come out of this, would be the world, the UN, the EU, Russia etc, finally realizing that this is not just a local problem (e.g. in Israel, in Manhattan, etc.) but a global world wide problem that must be met on a global world wide basis. People don't just do this on their own (e.g. like a serial killer) - they do this when they are supported intellectually and politically and militarily by an organized group and a culture that approves of such actions. Dwain - we disagree on the religion thread, but you have some really good posts the last week or two on this topic.

Top
#807195 - 09/06/04 08:53 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
That is the most horrific thing I have ever ever read.

to think humans could have such capacity for such evil....
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#807196 - 09/06/04 09:03 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
These are animals that should be exterminated. There is nothing here to negotiate.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#807197 - 09/06/04 09:07 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
MAK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 155
Loc: New York Metropolitan Area
The atrocities in Beslan should show the world what kind of people we are dealing with. The Israelis learned the hard way. The world is just now beginning to grasp the truth. For years, the European governments, in particular, let captured terrorists off, presumably in the hopes that the grateful terrorists would not strike them, and, after all, who cared that Jews were being killed? Now we are all targets. The killers justify their every atrocity with a primitive religious belief. The British, during the years of the Palestinian mandate, prior to the creation of the State of Israel, did bury Arab troublemakers in pigskin...it is time to revive the practice...but it won't happen. The rest of us are too civilized and polite.
_________________________
Michael

Bosendorfer 175

Top
#807198 - 09/06/04 09:07 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Thanks, Jeffrey.

Top
#807199 - 09/06/04 09:08 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Soldiers have been dragged through the street, set on fire, hung from bridges. Children have been lined up along a ditch and summarily shot, one after the other. Children have been raped, murdered, chopped into pieces and cooked into a stew, and fed to their fathers after starving him. Men, women, and children have been dropped head first, feet first into meat grinders while the rest of their family watched in horror. Women have been randomly grabbed off the streets and raped to death. Small children have been kept in prisons for years, literally growing up behind bars, tortured and abused.

And we still have some people who say that sending troops into the country where it all happened and putting a stop to it is an "unjustified war".

I have no trouble believing there are people in this world capable of such acts. What I have a hard time accepting is people who believe we should sit on our hands and do nothing about it.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#807200 - 09/06/04 09:14 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
For years, the European governments, in particular, let captured terrorists off, presumably in the hopes that the grateful terrorists would not strike them, and, after all, who cared that Jews were being killed? Now we are all targets. The killers justify their every atrocity with a primitive religious belief. [/b]

So the idea put forth here by some that we should find out why they are mad at us, give them what they want and they'll stop has been tried, and it failed.

The British, during the years of the Palestinian mandate, prior to the creation of the State of Israel, did bury Arab troublemakers in pigskin...it is time to revive the practice...but it won't happen. The rest of us are too civilized and polite.[/b]

I didn't know that. Good for the British. But you're correct - we've become too civilized and polite - and it is going to cause us to lose to the terrorists if we don't get over that a little.

Civil and polite works when facing civil and polite people. When facing madmen who don't know the meaning of civility and politeness, you have to deal with them in the manner they understand.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#807201 - 09/06/04 09:19 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York

Top
#807202 - 09/06/04 09:36 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
fmelliott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Virginia
Black Jack Pershing is said to have executed and buried Mohammedan terrorists in pigskin when we were dealing with them in the Philipines.

The newspaper listed the name of the Chechen warlord believed to be responsible for this horror. When will the Russians do the obvious thing and go have a "discussion" with him?

Top
#807203 - 09/06/04 09:41 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
I am horrified by what happened.
I am a liberal.
I'm not sure why I am being vilified here.

What they did was 100% wrong.
Period!
But, I *do* wonder why they did it.
Not that any reason could justify it, I just wonder why they did it.

Maybe only a liberal would wonder.
Conservatives are quick to demand justice, revenge, punishment.
Don't listen to what the group has to say.
Hunt them down, kill them all.

But you can't kill a cause.

These people were using an evil and unacceptable means to get the world’s attention, like the hijackers on 9-11.
This was not random evil.

This evil pales in comparison to what the Europeans did to the native Americans.
Europeans wanted the land so they killed the inhabitants.
Then instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they externalized it.
They send the unpleasant responsibility up to heaven.
They came up with “Manifest Destiny”, an idea that it was all God’s will.
After all, we are the Christians doing God’s work, and they are just savages.

*God's* idea?
Sound familiar?
(Hint: Jihad)

But weren't the Europeans terrorists?
Or was it only terrorism to the Native Americans?
Isn’t terrorism relative?

Everyone wants land.
A place for their people.
Another example of the ultimate evil, Groupism.
Heaven forbid we should all live side by side, pun intended.
Today you and I are quick to condemn this event in Beslan as pure evil.
But isn’t our comfortable America the result of our forefathers doing the same thing?
But they won.

Whoever wins the wars can write the history books their children read.
A few generations later the only thing anyone can remember about their forefathers is heroism and patriotism.
Anyone who speaks otherwise is a bad American, ungodly, not a person we will let my children associate with.

Yes, it is evil.
As evil as the lioness who kills her prey.
And you and I are a part of it.

They are not them.
They are us.

Top
#807204 - 09/06/04 09:50 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
These are animals that should be exterminated. There is nothing to negotiate or "understand". Figure out why they did it after they assume room temperature.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#807205 - 09/06/04 09:52 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
fmelliott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Virginia
Kenny that crack about Manifest destiny is unworthy of even a Liberal. You apparently have little knowledge of history and the cheap shot equating the US with terrorists is not appreciated in the least!!!

Maybe you should head out for the Middle East and go talk to the poor misunderstood people.

Top
#807206 - 09/06/04 09:57 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Excellent points raised there, Kenny!

Top
#807207 - 09/06/04 09:57 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
I am horrified by what happened.
I'm a liberal, and I am not sure why I am being vilified. [edit]

[/b]
kenny, you are not being vilified: you are being an ass. \:\)

Top
#807208 - 09/06/04 10:02 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Originally posted by Tom K:
 Quote:
kenny, you are not being vilified you are being an ass.[/b]
Typical lame response from one totally unwilling to face up to our own country's sometimes sordid past.

Top
#807209 - 09/06/04 10:07 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
What we did in our past does not need to be excused in order to face up to the animals who are murdering children today.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#807210 - 09/06/04 10:09 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Tom
Please requote me.
I edited.

Top
#807211 - 09/06/04 10:17 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Kenny I fully appreciate what you are saying and that you and I share the same disgust and revulsion to what has happened.

But I should like to say that evil does not exist on a scale of one to ten. Evil is absolute. The slaughter of Native Americans, the Nazi Holocaust, the Stalinist Terror, 9/11 and now this are all cut from the same cloth. Whether it was one Jew who perished because of his/her race or 6,000,000. There is no difference they all perished because the rationale of evil (Nazi ideology and its Final Solution) determined they were subhuman Jews and must die. That is hate and hate is evil.

Manifest Destiny on the other hand was not in itself evil. Manifest Destiny was a stated policy that recognized the US should expand westward and settle unclaimed territories- okay, Aboriginal lands- and stop at the shore of the Pacific Ocean. The evil that came out of Manifest Destiny in the slaughter and ethnic cleansing of Natives, was the work of essentially lawless adventurers, corrupt state and territorial officials and eventually, a few racist Generals. Sherman, Miles and Custer come immediately to mind- all three former Union generals in the War of Northern Aggression or Civil War.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

Top
#807212 - 09/06/04 10:24 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
This breaks my heart...makes me wonder if I should bring children into this world. To have them be faced with something like this, it is just too cruel.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#807213 - 09/06/04 10:31 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Kenny - The case of the Native Americans is different from the others - Hitler, and Islamic terrorism. Human beings innately have a desire to propagate and economically develop. America before European invasion was a large fertile landmass supporting a few hundred thousand people. Now it supports 300 million. Nowhere in the world has a traditional culture that takes a lot of land to support a small number of people withstood the natural human desire to expand and develop. This is a tragedy for all traditional peoples, but there was also no way to prevent it. Human being will naturally expand their society productively. Germany did not need to kill 6 million or so Jews to develop a numerous and economically prosperous society. Nor will killing Israeli, or Russian or American schoolchildren expand the population or economy of the Arab world. This is simply scapegoating others for the Muslim/Arab world's internal failures.

Top
#807214 - 09/06/04 10:32 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
What they did was 100% wrong.
But, I *do* wonder why they did it.
Not that any reason could justify it, I just wonder why they did it.[/b]

Wondering why they did it is not an exclusive thing to liberals. You are missing the whole point. Sure, I wonder why they did it. But I'm not going to turn that wonder into a negotiation. Why did they do it? Wonder all you want. But kill them, and do it in a way that makes others like them think twice before they do it again.

Maybe only a liberal would wonder.
The conservatives would be quick to think only of justice, revenge, punishment.
Hunt them down, kill them all.
But you can't kill a cause.[/b]

Really? I can think of several causes that were killed. The Nazi cause was essentially killed. Imperialism in Japan was effectively killed. Slavery was killed in the US (only to be replaced by the slavery of welfare).

Conservatives are more likely to be hard; they won’t listen to what the purpose of this group is.[/b]

That's because their purpose does not justify what they did. Finding out what their purpose is won't stop them, because what they want may not be something they can have. If they have a cause they want addressed, they had better ways of addressing those they have issues with. Why do you insist that the civilized world not hurt a flea when *they* have an issue or a cause they deem important but the fanatics they have to deal with won't listen, but think we should take the time to find out why *they* are upset?

Raising the issue of what happened a hundred years ago, or 2 or 3 hundred years ago, is a strawman. Sure, the Native Americans were treated horribly. Sure, someone should have gone to the aid of the Indians. Sure, those who did the horrible things that were done to the indians deserved to be shot on sight, ask questions later. But they weren't. No one did. And it's history. Now - learn from history. Don't bring up the evil that was done to American Indians as a way to argue against the position of hunting down today's terrorists and killing them for the crimes they commit. All you do is make the conservative case - no one saved the Indians when they should have. No one stopped the murderers who set out against them. Someone should have. They should have done it without wondering why they were killing all the indians, or sitting down and talking with them to find out what it is they wanted. We know what they wanted. Someone should have gotten together and fought to save them, without wasting one second wondering "why". All that was needed to be known was that they were killing innocent indians by the tens of thousands. That's what we should be doing now. We shouldn't be wondering why terrorists are killing people, we should be hunting down the terrorists and killing them wherever we find them, with absolutely no concern for "why". "Why" isn't important. Stopping them from killing people is what's important. You won't stop their killing by learning "why" any more than you would have stopped the advancement of Europeans across America by asking them "why".

You raise some interesting points, but they all come from the "touchy feely" viewpoint that is fine for disagreements between two civil people, but that will get lots of people killed when the reality of mankind comes into play.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#807215 - 09/06/04 10:37 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Eusebius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 725
Loc: Maryland
kenny's right. We will never make headway if we don't ask why.

Any one of us, brought up in a very different culture, might have been a terrorist. If we only kill products of a certain mentality, the mentality survives. If we set an example of understanding and generosity, perhaps by spending billions of dollars on aid instead of war, just maybe the mentality will be shaken.
_________________________
"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." - Santayana

Top
#807216 - 09/06/04 10:38 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by reblder:
Originally posted by Tom K:
 Quote:
kenny, you are not being vilified you are being an ass.[/b]
Typical lame response from one totally unwilling to face up to our own country's sometimes sordid past. [/b]
He's being an ass because nobody's vilifying him.

We get little too much of his "persecution complex" for my taste. This is a coffee room of a piano forum--not a Psych 101 board for the unloved. \:\)

And kenny, I like you.

Top
#807217 - 09/06/04 10:41 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Kenny, Eusebius - Actually, understanding "why" Islamic terrorists murder schoolchildren will reinforce the idea that they need to be killed, not negotiated with. They kill and torture children because they see non-Muslims (or in this case Muslims who aren't "Muslim" enough) as infidels to be killed and slaughtered as a religious commandment. This is what the Al Qaida documents and theory books teach (see here: www.memri.org ).

They don't see murding children as a tactic to achieve a political goal (like grabbing a hostage to get a ransom). They see the mass murder and torture of infidels as a positive good in and of itself morally praiseworthy (like Hitler saw killing Jews as a positive good, not just a way to extort money from the Jewish community). You and other liberals seem to assume that Islamic terrorists commit acts of violence for the reasons you imagine might provoke you to acts of violence - poverty, human rights etc. But the motives of Islamic fascists are quite far from that of a US liberal. It is not only liberals who ask "why" Islamic terrorists commit murder, but it does seem to be only conservatives who get the answer right and know how to act accordingly.

Top
#807218 - 09/06/04 10:54 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Great idea Eusebius. Let's pay bribes and protection money to get them to stop. :rolleyes:
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

Top
#807219 - 09/06/04 10:55 AM Re: Eyewitness accounts from Beslan start to come out
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eusebius:
kenny's right. We will never make headway if we don't ask why.

Any one of us, brought up in a very different culture, might have been a terrorist. If we only kill products of a certain mentality, the mentality survives. If we set an example of understanding and generosity, perhaps by spending billions of dollars on aid instead of war, just maybe the mentality will be shaken. [/b]
The terrorists' actions prove you wrong.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
What's Hot!!
New Forums Location & New Piano World Site
---------------------
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Sweetwater Hiring Keyboard Player!
Sweetwater Hiring Keyboard Player
(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
(ad)
A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Piano Wire Music Wire Piano Strings


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The Year I Became a Piano Tuner
by tonyster220763
04/28/17 07:13 AM
Hammer blow distance and dynamic range
by electone2007
04/28/17 06:16 AM
USB Thumb Drive vs. External Hard Drive
by DCCCXLV
04/28/17 05:47 AM
Kawai ES8 FM TiNES Sample Library
by Kakaze74
04/28/17 05:37 AM
So, what does it really take?
by PianogrlNW
04/27/17 10:57 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Stats
87,540 Registered Members
44 Forums
179,257 Topics
2,620,010 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission