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Originally posted by George061875:
making fun of the cavalier way in which Bush is attacking other people, showing how ludicrous he is in this endeavor. The ending, with a large chunk of the world blown away, was to me an indication the person who put it together saw what we were/are doing as ludicrous and dangerous. And how would you handle this George? Would you call a meeting and try to negotiate with them? Or would you just go ahead and give them control of the government? It scares the heck out of me to think that there might be many people in this country who are as misinformed as you are and who are allowed to vote. Here's the facts for you: there's nothing cavalier about it. And for you to think that requires putting your political agenda ahead of common sense. Someone has to have the guts to stand up to people who have no concern for human life, and no agenda other than to kill people. The people Bush has targeted are not innocent civilians who have done nothing wrong. They are criminals and murderers. They are fanatics who have no intention of following standard rules of engagement, which means limiting your targets to military ones. They attack civilian targets just as quickly as they will a military one. In fact, they prefer civilian targets. Their motivation is hate. They would as soon kill you as look at you, simply because you are standing there. These people do not deserve to live. They should be hunted down and killed where they stand. They are a danger to the entire civilized world. And they have no intention of honoring any rules of civility. They are only interested in destroying everyone and everything they can. *That* is the danger, George. That, and people who support them, as you apparently do. Thank your lucky stars that I am not in charge. Because I *would* have done it differently. Instead of hunting down the criminals, I would have rounded up every innocent man, woman, and child, and transported them out of the country, and then nuked the whole thing. I would have left a scorched hole in the ground. And in this country, I would have started a program of deportation of anyone who thought the way you do. We need more Americans, and fewer liberals in this country.
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Larry, I thought about responding to this but I knew you would be along. Now, after tossing out a hyperbolic comment like "cavalier way in which Bush is attacking other people", watch how shocked and surprised he is at what came back.
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Originally posted by Larry:
And how would you handle this George? How? I would recognize that men like Osama Bin Laden cannot do what they do unless they can find others to do the work for them. Why are there 1000's of terrorists? Because of the US blind support of Israel and the US decision to place troops in the Middle East. It is also because the current rulers in the Middle East deny the legitimate economic and political aspirations of their people. So, my answer.... 1. Force Israel to create the Palestinian State. It is time. We have made Israel secure. We can now do the same for the Palestinians. Use some of the billions we are spending in this war to stabilize and build the new state. 2. Force higher fuel efficiency of our automobiles, and force them to move to the hybrid cars and alternative fuels. Become independent of foreign oil and remove ALL of our troops from the Middle East. 3. As opposed to what George 1 did in sending our children to prop up the distatorships of the Middle East, use our political and economic might and force the dictatorships in the Middle East to open their societies up -- freedom of the press is the first thing they must have. Osama Bin Laden must have an army of terrorists to do what he does. He only has one because we have been focused solely on Israel and making sure the oil fields are secure -- and hence we have traded away the future of the Islamic youth for Israel and low gasoline prices. Change this and Osama no longer has his army and the US and the world will be secure. It might also be a far better place. And yes, Bush's defining the attack as an act of war, instead of an act of terrorism was cavalier. His defining an "axis of evil" is cavalier. His demanding that all countries choose either His way or be defined as in the terrorist camp is cavalier. Sending American troops to every little country He thinks has terrorists is cavalier. Is it really too much to expect the United States, with its strong values of freedom, openness, equality and peace to export these values to the world instead of war? Are we that limited in our creativity of how to lead the world? I think not. We created a free and secure Europe without war. Why can't we do the same thing in other places in the world? And specifically the Middle East because it is the birthplace of the terrorist threat against us? But then, killing is always so much easier, and feeds our lower nature's demand for revenge.
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There is so much wrong about this I really don't know where to begin. I also don't see the point. However, you speak of changing the Middle East with our political and economic might. Fat chance without military might to back it up. You say we created a free and secure Europe without war. I seem to recall one heck of a war over there and we were right in the middle of it. Force fuel economy to acheive energy independence? Could not work even at the point of a gun. Force Israel to create a Palestinian state? The Palestinians will never be satisfied with anything but the destruction of Israel. I could go on and on but why bother. Why should I expend anymore effort trying to make you see what is right under your nose. This is a waste of my time.
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Originally posted by George061875:
Because of the US blind support of Israel and the US decision to place troops in the Middle East. It is also because the current rulers in the Middle East deny the legitimate economic and political aspirations of their people.
1. Force Israel to create the Palestinian State. It is time. We have made Israel secure. We can now do the same for the Palestinians. Use some of the billions we are spending in this war to stabilize and build the new state.
Blind support? Where did you go to school? There already *is* a Palestinian state, George. It's called Jordan. The land that is called Israel has belonged to Isreal since the dawn of recorded history. The idea that it somehow belonged to the Arabs is a myth. It doesn't, it won't, and it never did. There are 24 Arab nations that surround Israel, and Israel is but a little dot on the map in relation to their size. Support of Israel? You bet! If the Palestinians want to blame someone for taking their land, let them turn to Jordan and blame them. They are the ones who took their land, not Israel. The arabs have no right to the land of Israel, and they have no right to another state. All this is is political propaganda, which you obviously have bought into because you don't know the true history of the region. So I'll give you a couple of places to go learn it: It has always belonged to the Jews The Arabs are the enterlopers The truth is, we aren't supporting Israel enough. What we ought to do is make Jordan give back the land they stole from Israel, and then load up all the so called "Palestinians" and put them back into Jordan and Syria where they belong. The Palestinians don't deserve another state, and they don't deserve the land that belongs to Israel. Oil has nothing to do with it. 2. Force higher fuel efficiency of our automobiles, and force them to move to the hybrid cars and alternative fuels. Become independent of foreign oil and remove ALL of our troops from the Middle East.
Then are you willing to allow drilling in the area of Alaska that the rest of the liberals are screaming bloody murder about? I agree we should reduce our dependence on foreign oil. But giving dreamy eyed pie in the sky ideas is of no help. The entire world depends on oil, not just us. As a result, someone has to see that the idiots who live on the land where the oil is aren't able to disrupt the rest of the world as they act like a bunch of stone age fools.
3. As opposed to what George 1 did in sending our children to prop up the distatorships of the Middle East, use our political and economic might and force the dictatorships in the Middle East to open their societies up -- freedom of the press is the first thing they must have.
More starry eyed liberal thought that ignores reality. Before this can work, you have to be dealing with people who are capable of being rational. The arabs aren't capable of being rational. You can't reason with them. So you aren't going to get them to open up anything.
and hence we have traded away the future of the Islamic youth for Israel and low gasoline prices. Change this and Osama no longer has his army and the US and the world will be secure.
Bull ****, George. The Arabs traded away the future of their youth, by feeding them fanatical lies and propaganda, and by focusing on eliminating Israel. This isn't about a "Palestinian state", it's about eliminating Israel. And it isn't going to happen. They need to get over it. Israel is. You bet we'll support them. And nothing you do or nothing you will say will cause Osama and his criminals to change their ways and settle down to live in peace with the rest of the world. They have led you down a primrose path, George. They don't care about Israel, or the "Palestinians". They only care about what's in it for them. They want power. They want to rule over someone, preferrably everyone. Islam is their excuse. And liberals who buy into your line of thinking are their tools.
And yes, Bush's defining the attack as an act of war, instead of an act of terrorism was cavalier. His defining an "axis of evil" is cavalier. His demanding that all countries choose either His way or be defined as in the terrorist camp is cavalier. Sending American troops to every little country He thinks has terrorists is cavalier.
I guess you thought when Ronald Reagan called the USSR The Evil Empire you considered him to be cavalier, too? Well, where is the USSR now, George? The truth is that Bush has far more vision than you'll ever have. He knew exactly what he was doing when he made that statement. It wasn't a mistake. It was said on purpose. And it was about time.
Is it really too much to expect the United States, with its strong values of freedom, openness, equality and peace to export these values to the world instead of war?
Pacifist BS, George. You can't export these things to fanatics who don't understand anything other than brute force. You assume too much when you assume these people are capable of accepting logic and reason, or even understanding it. The cold reality is, they only understand brutality. So you can't reason with them. You can only hunt them down and kill them.
But then, killing is always so much easier, and feeds our lower nature's demand for revenge.
Ah yes. Elevate yourself to a position of superior civility by accusing those who fight your battles for you of being mere brutes. Wake up George. It wasn't a bunch of Midwestern farmers who flew a plane into a building full of arabs somewhere in the middle east and killed them all. Revenge has nothing to do with it. The world is faced with a large and entrenched group of fanatical criminals who are hiding behind a religion and using the political landscape as their excuse to terrorize the world. They were able to become strong because for the last 8 years no one was watching the store. We now have someone in office who has the guts to do what needs to be done to correct the problems created by 8 years of neglect. More neglect by trying to reason with fanatics is not the answer. It's time to quit talking and start kicking ass. And that's just what's happening.
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War became the option, if not the only option, the moment Bush2 declared the attack was an act of war. Had he declared it a terrorist act, we would have had innumberable other options. But they are gone to us now, and our children are being killed, because Bush2 keft us with only one option -- to attack back.
Up until WWII, the typical course of action was for the victor to vanquish and punish the loser. But the US was the strongest nation by far in 1945 and we rose to our higher values and decided that we would not do that. Rather, we would rebuild our enemies, give them a strong economic system and a strong democratic system. We did. It worked marvelously and we changed the course of history and the way enemies are treated in defeat.
On 9/11, we were again the strongest nation, by far, of any on earth. No one even close. We had any option we wanted. No one would have stopped us. We could have sought out the terrorists, without a war in Afganistan. We could have rounded them up, and put them on trial at the World Court, where the entire world could judge them, rather than plan for secret, kangaroo courts on US ships. We could have created and led an international coaliton NOT to kill people, but to expand freedom and free markets. We could have raised the world up to our standards as a nation, rather than lowering ourselves to the historical standards that the world had always used to fight violence -- more violence. It has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
Now, just six months later, the hatred of the US grows, rather than diminishes. Our allies are putting the brakes on Bush2's efforts to expand our military operations to other countries because they see the foolhardiness of it. Rather than leading the world in a new direction, a direction based on American values, we are being reined in like a petulant bully.
What happened on 9/11 was a terrible, terrible thing. But it could have been used for so much good -- America could have changed historical trends again. But we didn't. We chose, instead, to go to war.
How very sad for us and for the world.
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You seem to forget that before we could rebuild our enemies we had to KICK THEIR BUTTS. You are leaving out an important step there.
As far as rounding up the terrorists and putting them on trial in the world court how in the heck are you going to go into Afghanistan (for instance) and round up terrorists without starting a war. Just show up with warrants and say we're here to pick up these gentlemen? You are truly living in a dream world. Even if you could get them in front of a "world court" I can only imagine the sort of rough justice that would be meted out. It would be a long drawn out circus. And this is the sort of response you contemplate to the depravity committed against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. I used to think guys like you would need a building to fall on you to see the light but now I can see that I was quite literally wrong. Even that has no effect.
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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I agree with JBryan. Terrorists need to know that there will be NO SAFE HAVEN for them. This is not the same kind of enemy that opposed the civilized world in World War II. This is a network of cells, some sleeping cells. They need training, the kind of training they got in Afghanistan. We have to physically disrupt that wherever we find it. We should make every nation with a thought of hosting this hoodlums scared out of their minds to contemplate it for a single second!
Without this training and organization, we'll have a few crazies on our hand, but not the kind of threat we faced on Sept. 11. So yes, we must face world opposition and go it alone if we have to. Because we have to. I'm less concerned about what the world, or specifically Europe, thinks of us. They don't share all of our values. It is the values in our founding documents that need to change world opinion, not world opinion change our values.
penny
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Originally posted by George061875:
We could have rounded them up, and put them on trial at the World Court, where the entire world could judge them, rather than plan for secret, kangaroo courts on US ships.
How very sad for us and for the world. The World Court? This World Court? The destruction of the US constitution part 1 The destruction of the US Constitution part 2 The destruction of the US Constitution part 3 The destruction of the US Constitution part 4 The destruction of the US Constitution part 5 That World Court George? What other rights would you like to give away? World Court my hind end. The criminals had US justice coming to them, not justice determined by a bunch of little rogue nations that hate us anyway. The government of the United States should officially renounce the very existence of the world court, and place them on notice that not only will they absolutely not recognize their authority in any instance, but that if they try to hold jurisdiction over any American citizen they will be destroyed just as surely as the Taliban was destroyed. And then they should toss the communist UN out on their ear. And anyone who supports the very idea of a world court should be put on one of those "kangaroo court" ships and tried for treason, then shot at dawn. You are one seriously misguided individual, George.
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Originally posted by Penny: I agree with JBryan. Terrorists need to know that there will be NO SAFE HAVEN for them. This is not the same kind of enemy that opposed the civilized world in World War II. This is a network of cells, some sleeping cells. They need training, the kind of training they got in Afghanistan. We have to physically disrupt that wherever we find it. We should make every nation with a thought of hosting this hoodlums scared out of their minds to contemplate it for a single second! Penny On the face of it, these seems logical and reasonable. But it makes for a policy which does not provide the security we all want. Perhaps the best example I can give is that of Israel. What you have espoused is the policy of Israel. Clearly, it does not work. Israel's actions have done nothing more than generate additional hatred for them, additional violence and continuing attacks on Israel. Do you think Israel would be under attack now if after the 1967 war they had done the same thing as the US did with Germany and Japan after WWII? If Israel had been doing this the past 35 years, instead of following the policy you and others feel is the way to go, Israel would be secure today. Maybe not loved, but secure. Is this not what we really want? Security and lack of terrorist attacks? The why should we follow what is obviously a failed policy when we, in our own history, know what works?
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Originally posted by Larry: That World Court George? What other rights would you like to give away?
Larry Mr. Ashcroft and Mr. Bush are do quite a good job at taking my rights away. They have done far more to destroy the rights and freedoms that America is about than Osama Bin Laden ever dreamed of when he conceived of attacking the WTC. The World Court can't even come close to destroying the Bill of Rights at the same level that Ashcrift and Bush have done.
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Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Originally posted by JBryan: Hysterical nonsense. Really? I never thought I would be in an America where some underpaid "security official" could order me to take off my shoes in a public airport, could grope my body to check for any small bulge and then demand I reveal what I am carrying in my pockets, who would rifle through all of my personal belongings I am carrying with me. Nor did I ever think I would be in an America where all of my emails, my phone records, my personal correspondence are open to the government to review without a search warrant. Nor did I ever think I would be in an America where a President, without a Congressionally declared war as required in the Consitutuion, would take upon himself the right to decide where someone is tried, who would act as judge and jury, decide the criteria for guilt outside of the criteria established by law, and announce that he will do all of this in secret. If this is hysterical nonsense, then so is the Bill of Rights. If Bush2 really feels he should have the ability to take these rights away from us, then he should have the guts to go before the Congress and ask for a formal declaration of war. By getting one, he then gains a tremendous ability to forego individual freeedoms. What we get, if a war is declared, is knoweldge of when this suspension of rights will end -- when the war ends. Any body out there able to give me an idea of when this assault by Bush on our rights will end? Oh that's right -- it will end when he, or a future President, decides it will end. Hmmmm....
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Originally posted by George061875:
The World Court can't even come close to destroying the Bill of Rights at the same level that Ashcrift and Bush have done. I see you didn't even bother to read the links I gave you. You just shut your mind and continued to spout your same misinformed liberal mantra. You know of course that the UN is also right as we speak setting up a world taxation program, do you not? You will soon be forced to pay international taxes, taxes set by people other than our own government? And you realize that the UN is also setting up their own standing army, something that once you combine their legal arm and their taxation arm means that they become the one world government that will then make our own constitution secondary to their authority? Do you know who we have to thank for this? Clinton, and all the socialists that have taken over the once proud Democratic party. Do you know how they did it? Because people like you won't open your eyes and see that your country is being taken away from you by outside forces. It isn't the "corporations" that are doing it. It isn't Bush, Ashcroft, or the conservatives. What they are doing is trying to get a handle on the mess your crowd left us with, and save our country. Wake up George. If you and others like you don't wake up soon, you will be pledging allegiance to the flag of the New World Order, controlled by the Hague, and your rights will be subject to approval by countries like Zimbabwe and Iran. Once that happens, you and the rest of the liberals who thought you were just being "intellectually and civilly superior" to those warmongering conservatives will be looking for some more Bushes and Ashcrofts to pull your butt out of the fire, but it will be too late.
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George, It is a miracle at all that Israel has survived this long! You actually think there could be peace in the region. You don't understand. Israel's enemies HATE HER and won't rest until they see her complete annihilation! The animosity goes back to biblical times! Israel was already willing to give Palestine over 90 percent of what it was seeking and Arafat still said no. Bill Clinton was severely disappointed in Arafat. If he can see the futility, why can't you?
There are fanatical Muslims that teach 5-year-olds to hate Jews and look forward to killing them. They purposefully target civilians. They celebrate each death of a Jew, man, woman and child.
There are no simple solutions under these circumstances.
Israel has survived. And now terrorists are putting America in survival mode.
penny
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It's been fun fencing with you George but I have to leave town for a couple of days. I just don't have the time to address the liberal claptrap you have posted above. However, I'm sure Larry, Penny and others will oblige. Bye for now. :p
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Hmmm...It is clear to me that George hasn't been to Israel lately. I've spent about two months over there during the past 12 months, and it's a complicated mess. It is difficult to explain what it feels like to experience first-hand the hatred that exists over there. I ran across it once entirely by accident and am glad to remain in posession of my scalp. I hope that none of you has to see this.
There is much disagreement within the Israeli polity on how to best achieve peace and security. There have been a lot of different changes in government within Israel that have tried both reconciliation and hard-line approaches. One of the real tragedies is that just when peace seems almost within reach that there is always attacks and disruption from the extremes, the people that have the most to loose from peace.
There is a sitting Justice on the Israeli Supreme Court that has some interesting things to say on the issue of security vs. civil liberties. Unlike Benjamin Franklin's assertion that "Anybody who is willing to pay for security with freedom deserves neither", this Justice asserts that there is in fact a tradeoff between liberty and security. Judges have to weigh these two principles frequently against each other when they come into conflict. And so must we, as a society, re-think what it means to be free in an age of terrorism.
T2 ___________________
"When they love their children more than they hate us, then peace will come." - Golda Meyer
[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: T2 ]
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T2, Nice quote from Golda Meyer but it doesn't apply anymore. I wish it still did. The parents of suicide bombers rejoice that their children are in their heaven. They raise children to become suicide bombers. This is how they "love" them.
Like I said, this is a completely different kind of evil than what we faced in WWII.
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Originally posted by Penny: T2, Nice quote from Golda Meyer but it doesn't apply anymore. I wish it still did. The parents of suicide bombers rejoice that their children are in their heaven. They raise children to become suicide bombers. This is how they "love" them.
Like I said, this is a completely different kind of evil than what we faced in WWII.
penny Actually, Penny, it is not all that different from the evils of WWII. Hitler was able to rise to power only because of the treaty ending WWI which made the German people economically, politically and militarily powerless. They were thrown down by the rest of Europe and kept there until they took matters into their own hands. When they did, as always happens in these situations, the results are dictatorial, militaristic and have grave consequences for the world if the people who have been rendered impotent have adequate power to reek havoc, as the Germans did. The United States, after WWII, recognized this trend in history and would not allow it to happen in Europe again -- and took a totally different teck, which has proven remarkably successful. However, we now have the Islamic people feeling impotent and ignored. We have legitimate political and economic aspirations of the peoples of that region being ignored and kept down. The US, along with its allies, for the sole purpose of maintaining the oil pipeline to feed our automobiles, are propping up regimes that do not have popular support, that deny the rights that the people are demanding, and that fail to allow the people to move into the future they wish to have. And so, we see the same historical trends occuring again. Extremist leaders arise, garner a following of angry and committed young people who see no future for themselves, catch the imagination of the people and strike out in anger and frustration. And Bush2 is playing right into their hands -- adding to the anger, frustration and sense of impotence. If we truly want to be secure, truly want peace, truly want to stop attacks on the US, then we cannot do it with our military. We must change the political culture in the Middle East so that the people recognize that their lives are improving and will improve. If they are respected and have hope, the violence will stop. We have the power to give them that -- we are the only ones with that power. If we fail to do so, we will suffer the long term consequences. Bush2 may be able to stop Al Quaeda in the short run, but with his policies, he cannot stop the historical movement towards ever increasing anger, frustration and violent attacks against the United States and the rest of the industrialized world.
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George! The German Nazis did not jump in the ovens with the Jews! They envisioned a world in which they thrived, enjoying the fruits of the West, power, economic prosperity, culture, etc. The fanatical Muslims (estimated to be 10 percent of the Arab Muslim population) don't want our civilazation. They don't particularly want any civilazation on earch. They want their paradise. They are told of it from very young. They are also told that Jews kill Arabs and pour the blood in the recipes of food for Passover and Purim. You don't seem to get it! The hatred runs DEEP. It didn't start with the U.S. and I think it's a little egocentric to think that it did. Now we may be alligned with the hatred of Israel because we support Israel. It's a democracy for goodness' sake. Let's not forget that!
penny
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