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The Lie Is Being Exposed #781133
05/11/03 09:07 AM
05/11/03 09:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 973
L
Lazy Pianist Offline OP
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Lazy Pianist  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 973
We now know the Iraqi's want us out. Saddam cannot be found. The teams looking for WEMD's are leaving because ther eis nothing to be found.

The war was cl;early a sham. 1000's dead. Billions spent. A country in ruins.

Was it all a sham? Looks like it.


WMD = Words of Mass Distortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.
Piano & Music Accessories
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781134
05/11/03 09:41 AM
05/11/03 09:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,789
Plainfield, IL
Matt G. Offline
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Matt G.  Offline
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Plainfield, IL
As I've gotten older, I have come to some interesting realizations about people. The one that immediately springs to mind here is that some people will have their minds made up about a subject, and no amount of contradictory information will change their minds. In their minds, the slightest amount of data that seems to bolster their opinions will be turned into a major point of argument and rationalization far beyond its actual import.

How does one deal with this type of sensibility? The smartest and safest thing to do is just nod your head and say "uh-huh" while smiling sardonically. No amount of mental energy expended by you will change these people's opinions, nor will they begrudge even a passing acceptance that another viewpoint might have merit.

So, here is my smiling nod and "uh-huh". :rolleyes:


Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781135
05/11/03 10:10 AM
05/11/03 10:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 258
Atlanta, GA
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o2photo Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Atlanta, GA
LP has obviously not seen the History Channel's 'Horrors of Hussein' special. If LP has seen it and still holds that opinion, well, there's just nothing more to do. How can you reach someone that far gone? You can't.

Marc

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781136
05/11/03 10:36 AM
05/11/03 10:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,338
Switzerland
M
mrenaud Offline
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Switzerland
Don't forget that Bush Sr. decided not to dispose of Saddam in 1991. He then suggested the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam themselves, but didn't support them as they'd expected. Saddam was still in power and quite furious, resulting in a rather large bloodbath.

Even though you probably don't like hearing it, having overthrown Saddam's rule is still no justification for the war as it could already have happened back in 1991.

Here's my :rolleyes: and "uh-huh" for you.


I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781137
05/11/03 10:51 AM
05/11/03 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,495
piqué Offline
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this past week i attended a fundraiser for a gubenatorial candidate for our state. he ran for the u.s. senate last election and lost.

during his speech at our gathering, he revealed one of the reasons he wanted to go to the u.s. senate was that he had lived in the middle east for over a decade and understood the region very well. he announced that the real reason for the war in iraq is that the CIA knows that the royal family in saudi arabia is going to be assassinated/overthrown (don't remember which) within the next decade and the u.s. will have to secure a reliable supply of oil.

the only reason for this war, he assured us, was that CIA knowledge, and the desperate need to control iraqi oil fields, and he knew this war was coming even back then, and wanted to stand up in the senate and speak out against it.

i can't comment on the veracity of this. i'm just reporting it as heard.


piqué

now in paperback:
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Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781138
05/11/03 11:12 AM
05/11/03 11:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
S
shantinik Offline
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Olympia, WA
To me, the more interesting question is this: have Powell and Rumsfeld been knowingly lying the entire time, or is American "intelligence", in all branches, so stupid, so unbelievably incompetent, that the literally thousands of tons of materials they claim to have known about having vanished into thin air.

For me, I'd prefer the lying scenario. I paid good money for that "intelligence", and if they are really so incompetent, I'd fire them all, beginning with Powell and Rumsfeld, and moving down the line. If true, they put American lives (as well as Iraqi ones) at grave risk in service of their stupidity, which is unconscionable.

Lying, on the other hand, is just politics as usual.

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781139
05/11/03 11:22 AM
05/11/03 11:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,467
Phoenix, AZ
Nina Offline
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Nina  Offline
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Phoenix, AZ
shantinik:

It pains me to say it, but your cynical view is starting to make sense to me.

There is no doubt that Hussein is (or was) a monster. There's also no doubt that thousands or millions of Iraqis have the potential to live safer lives without him in power.

But this war does have a bit of "bait and switch" to it.
1) It's a war against terrorism
2) There are links between Hussein and Al Qaeda
3) There are WMDs
4) There is nuclear capability
5) Hussein is butchering his citizens
6) Hussein is in violation of UN mandates, which we can't ignore if the UN (or any international body) is to remain viable

Any of these might have been a reason to go to war, but the mere fact that the administration didn't present a cohesive picture from the get-go makes me nervous and does breed cynicism.

Nina

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781140
05/11/03 11:44 AM
05/11/03 11:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
S
shantinik Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
I don't see my view as cynical, but as "realpolitik". It is what I expect out of the corporate nation-state.

But I was discussing this with my daughter this morning, and I really can't figure it out very well. All governments have their "Ministry of Intelligence" and their "Ministry of Propaganda". But, usually, folks at the highest level of government can keep straight which is which.

Now Powell is a known quantity. He lied on national tv in 1991 when he announced that he had "taken out" all 20 Iraqi SCUD missile launchers, only to have the inspectors go in and find out that the U.S. hadn't destroyed a single one. Aerial surveillance is reasonably good, so I have to assume he knew he was lying, and he wasn't found out immediately, so the lie worked.

But this time the lies were so bald, found out so quickly that (for countries other than Pulau), what little moral prestige was left with the U.S. was virtually destroyed. (Note that the "Coalition of the Very Small and Anonymous" has now disappeared in favor of the "occupying powers".) Was he testing us to see how much we would put up with, the fact that no matter how outrageous the lies, we would go along? (I don't put this past Rumsfeld, but Powell?) Or had the coup of the Ministry of Propaganda been so complete that Powell himself couldn't keep it straight?

So now let's look at the record. No WMD. No Saddam Hussein. No Ben-Laden. No uprising against the Iraqi Regime (in Basra or anywhere else.) No military resistance to speak of. No weapons used against Israel. No SCUDS. The U.S. got rid of a pretty bad guy -- no worse and no better than some of the leaders who were included in the Coalition of the Very Small.

For this we spent $100 billion, and are going to spend a lot more.

Halliburton is very pleased.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=hal&d=c

(in case you hadn't noticed, the stock price has tripled since last July. :rolleyes: )

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781141
05/11/03 12:26 PM
05/11/03 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Or it could be something as simple as "not on my watch". 9/11 shook and continues to shake the US to its very core. Aside from anything else, the Bush Administration intends to remain in the White House for two terms. Yet it cannot afford to have another incident like 9/11 and hope to achieve this aim. It therefore must act decsively and, if necessary, pre-emptively to ward off the possibility of another such attack.

Hussein was unfinished business that could be linked with the terrorists in the mind of the voting public. Hard facts therefore were not necessary to justify action, rather the Administration just had to be perceived as doing something to prevent another possible attack.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781142
05/11/03 12:38 PM
05/11/03 12:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Quote
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
We now know the Iraqi's want us out. Saddam cannot be found. The teams looking for WEMD's are leaving because ther eis nothing to be found.

The war was cl;early a sham. 1000's dead. Billions spent. A country in ruins.

Was it all a sham? Looks like it.
I hope you are using the royal "we" in this statement or, perhaps, you have something in your pocket. "We" know no such thing.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781143
05/11/03 12:40 PM
05/11/03 12:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Quote
Originally posted by mrenaud:
Don't forget that Bush Sr. decided not to dispose of Saddam in 1991. He then suggested the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam themselves, but didn't support them as they'd expected. Saddam was still in power and quite furious, resulting in a rather large bloodbath.

Even though you probably don't like hearing it, having overthrown Saddam's rule is still no justification for the war as it could already have happened back in 1991.

Here's my :rolleyes: and "uh-huh" for you.
The logic implicit in this statement is that because we made a mistake in the past we are consigned to live with the consequences of that mistake whether the opportunity presents itself to correct it or not. I have a problem following that reasoning.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781144
05/11/03 12:41 PM
05/11/03 12:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
S
shantinik Offline
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shantinik  Offline
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S

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
Quote
Originally posted by JBryan:
I hope you are using the royal "we" in this statement or, perhaps, you have something in your pocket. "We" know no such thing.
"We" do know that Halliburton's stock price has tripled since last July.
cool

As a conservative, I would have assumed that you'd br pretty upset either because you were lied to, or because your tax dollars supported such a government boondoggle of "inteligence".

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781145
05/11/03 12:48 PM
05/11/03 12:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:
To me, the more interesting question is this: have Powell and Rumsfeld been knowingly lying the entire time, or is American "intelligence", in all branches, so stupid, so unbelievably incompetent, that the literally thousands of tons of materials they claim to have known about having vanished into thin air.

For me, I'd prefer the lying scenario. I paid good money for that "intelligence", and if they are really so incompetent, I'd fire them all, beginning with Powell and Rumsfeld, and moving down the line. If true, they put American lives (as well as Iraqi ones) at grave risk in service of their stupidity, which is unconscionable.

Lying, on the other hand, is just politics as usual.
These weapons would not have had to "disappear into thin air" in order for them not to have been found by now. Iraq is a big country and we gave Saddam Hussein a lot of time to dispose of, hide, or transfer these weapons.

It would defy all reason (not that SH can be said to be reasonable) that Saddam Hussein would bring this destruction down on himself when he had disposed of these weapons and ended his weapons programs. He had the chance to provide the documentation to that effect and clearly was unwilling to do so.

I suspect the truth will come out in the end but I am not surprised that just one month after the fall of Baghdad it still has not.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781146
05/11/03 12:52 PM
05/11/03 12:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
JBryan  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:
"We" do know that Halliburton's stock price has tripled since last July.
cool

I should be upset about that? Is this supposed to imply that we went to war to boost Haliburton's stock value? I would not become upset over such silliness.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781147
05/11/03 01:08 PM
05/11/03 01:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Quote
Originally posted by JBryan:

I suspect the truth will come out in the end but I am not surprised that just one month after the fall of Baghdad it still has not.
Can't argue with that, the truth always has a humiliating habit of revealing itself over time. There is a limit to what any school of falsification can conceal. Why, it only took 24 to 48 hours a year ago in April, for the world to learn the real truth about the supposed resignation of Hugo Chavez as President of Venezuela.

The Iraq affair, is the Main Event so to speak. We should all be patient.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781148
05/11/03 02:00 PM
05/11/03 02:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
S
shantinik Offline
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shantinik  Offline
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S

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,271
Olympia, WA
Quote
Originally posted by JBryan:
{/qb]
These weapons would not have had to "disappear into thin air" in order for them not to have been found by now. Iraq is a big country and we gave Saddam Hussein a lot of time to dispose of, hide, or transfer these weapons.

I suspect the truth will come out in the end but I am not surprised that just one month after the fall of Baghdad it still has not.[/QUOTE]

Well, the headline in my morning paper says the Administration disagrees with you. They are in fact stopping the search in the belief that the weapons aren't there. If they believed they were still there , they'd still be looking for them.
"We didn't have all those people in protective suits for nothing," said Army Colonel Richard McPhee, who will close down the task force next month. "But if Iraq thought of using such weapons, there had to have been something to use...Books will be written on that in the intelligence community for a long time." It's kind of hard to hide "hundreds of tons" of biological, chemical, and nuclear materials from the richest "intelligence" service in the history of the world, don't you think?

As for the Halliburton stock, as you know (because I've said it repeatedly), I don't think you can judge intentions (which are always mixed in any case) -- you can only see results. (You wouldn't deny they are pleased, would you?)

And you did read about Richard Perle's "seminar", didn't you?
cool

Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781149
05/11/03 02:16 PM
05/11/03 02:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:

Well, the headline in my morning paper says the Administration disagrees with you. They are in fact stopping the search in the belief that the weapons aren't there. If they believed they were still there , they'd still be looking for them.
"We didn't have all those people in protective suits for nothing," said Army Colonel Richard McPhee, who will close down the task force next month. "But if Iraq thought of using such weapons, there had to have been something to use...[/QB]
Not quite raining on the parade yet, but clouds are gathering, unless, of course, you are a multinational in the oil business or large EPC firm.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781150
05/11/03 02:19 PM
05/11/03 02:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
JBryan Offline
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JBryan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,798
Oklahoma City
Quote
Originally posted by shantinik:


Well, the headline in my morning paper says the Administration disagrees with you. They are in fact stopping the search in the belief that the weapons aren't there.
Well, I have been through my entire Sunday paper and have not found any report that the US has stopped looking for WMD although they have stated that they will rely more on evidence gathered by interrogating Iraqi officials rather than any sort of search teams. Nor have I found any indication that our government believes that the weapons aren't there. they may not know if the weapons are still there but that is a far cry from believing that they are not or that they never were.

Quote
As for the Halliburton stock, as you know (because I've said it repeatedly), I don't think you can judge intentions (which are always mixed in any case) -- you can only see results. (You wouldn't deny they are pleased, would you?)
Of course they are pleased. Would not any company that got these contracts be pleased? Are we to only allow those who would not be pleased or would not realize a financial benefit to be awarded these contracts? That is rediculous. Someone has to do it and they won't be a non-profit organization.

Quote
And you did read about Richard Perle's "seminar", didn't you?
cool
No I did not. Is this some more of that PNAC nonsense?
:p


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781151
05/11/03 02:36 PM
05/11/03 02:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Perhaps this link to the BBC will help.

US Arms Experts to Leave Iraq


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: The Lie Is Being Exposed #781152
05/11/03 02:41 PM
05/11/03 02:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 151
Maryland
J
Jason_dup2 Offline
Full Member
Jason_dup2  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 151
Maryland
I thinkthat the war was initially sold as a WOMD violation so I think it should be important to find them. But lighten up!!! The Un weapons inspectors spend years looking for these things and since they are not found in one month you are completely condeming the fact that we can not find them. Lighten up, when multiple reliable resources report that the hunt is over and the WOMD were never found then gloat. Not that it will do any good because what has happened has happened and the only you pesimists can do about it is not vote for the man next election.

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