Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Does the Koran teach intolerance ?

Woah!

I'm not saying it's not God's Word. IT IS. The problem I have is how it should be understood. All exactly like it's written? (When Jesus says there was a lady at the well, there WAS a lady at the well.) Or metaphorically, in SOME circumstances.

Is the meaning more important than the delivery?

Yes, there was a lady at the well. By what reasoning would anyone think not?

It was a story meant to teach a lesson, maybe?

How 'bout this: "This is my body."

By the way, not on your case, just interested in your answer.

There is an entire narrative there. It's not like Jesus' parables used in teaching when he was telling a story. So I don't see any reason to think it wasn't a real event. Are you asking if Jesus meant that when he gave them that it was really his flesh and blood or did they just represent his flesh and blood? No, they were symbols of his body and blood he gave for us. He said as much, and said that whenever we do it in the future, do it in remembrance of Him. It just reminds us of His love and sacrifice for us. He further stated, "I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Why would I think there was a single word of symbolism or metaphor here? He said THIS IS MY BODY, not this repesents my body, or this is kind of like what my body means.

How could you not take Jesus, at His most earnist, at His Word? Miss this point and you don't take the Bible seriously at all.

Ah, but I don't believe that *is* the point. He spoke of himself metaphorically. Take for example John 6: "...it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world...Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.'" Jesus said do this in remembrance of Him, not as a reenactment. He also clearly stated that they were drinking the fruit of the vine. Jesus also said his body was a temple, but we know he wasn't made out of limestone (or whatever thay have over there). Jesus used the same methods to teach that were common in that day: stories and graphic illustrations. This is quite clearly a metaphor. Jesus' work on the cross is complete. We do not have to keep "redoing it."

Tom,
Coincidentally, (I really don't believe in coincidences), this is the very passage my pastor discussed in church today.

Why YOU wouldn't capture the symbolism is quite clearly explained this way: You aren't a Jew celebrating Passover, as the men who surrounded Him were. (Listen up to those who want to connect the OT with the NT!) Unleavened bread was a symbol to the Jews of two significant points. One, they didn't have time to raise bread when they were hauling butt out of Egypt. Two, yeast (or leaven) was often used to symbolize sin and oppression in those days.

(Time out for a verse: I Cor 5:6-8 "Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast -- as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.")

So when the Jews left Egypt, they left behind the sin and the oppression and were starting anew, heading toward God's promises. The Passover Sedar is EXTREMELY symbolic and takes 3-5 hours to relate each element and their symbolism.

So, to the Jew celebrating Passover with Jesus, for him to pick up the unlevened bread and say, "This is my body" was huge in the ears that heard it! No one had ever said that before at a Sedar.


Does this help?
penny

Dear Penny,

I can see that, BUT maybe, just maybe Christ was was doing something different, just the opposite, (as He had a nasty habit of doing,) maybe He was cuting through the symbolism and saying, THIS IS MY BODY. Maybe He was cuting thought the poopie and establishing a direct relationship between Him and us.

You have one opinion in good faith and I have another.

How can we know for sure what His intentions were? And if we don't know His intentions, how can we even dream about taking the Bible literally?

Gryphon

On what basis do you decide what is metaphor/allegory and what is not?

Clearly, when Jesus or one of the prophets is telling a parable, we can all agree they are using a literary story-telling device to make a point. But when it is not a parable, how do you decide what is metaphor and what is not?

Does not determining what passages are metaphorical and which are not call for an interpretation of what you are reading? If so, why intepret some passages but accept others for exactly what they say?

If "This is my body" is metaphor, then how about "I am the way, the truth and the life?" How about "No one comes to the Father except through me"?

Why is the first a metaphor but the next two are not?

Tom, correct me if I wrong, but I think you may be inadvertantly cornering Gryphon on what is really a doctrinal point peculiar to Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy- the mystery of the Transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Christ (Eucharist). For Gryphon and other Protestants- with exception of Lutherans who believe in the consubstantiation or the presence of the holy spirit in the Eucharist- the communion of bread and wine is a symbolic recreation of the last supper. In Orthodoxy and Catholicism the bread and wine after being consecrated by the priest, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ and are not therefore in any way symbols.

Yes and no.

On the one hand, I can understand why this would be a major thing for Jews at a Seder because the Seder is so ritualistic and this was outside the bounds of the ritual.

On the other, it seems to me that you are saying it was huge for more reason than just the fact it was outside of the ritual. This part I do not understand.

To quote Denzel Washington in the movie Philadelphia, "Explain it to me like I am a six year old."

But all this can be taken literally, if you think of THIS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD.

I see your point, but it could be taken either way, in good faith. So the question is, if the bible can be understood in different ways, in good faith, what is the true meaning? The Bible is True all right, but we the sinful and corrupt, fail to understand.

(In apostrophe,)
It's funny that at this point I am arguing with a Fundamentalist FOR the literal undersanding of the Bible, and he speaking for the metaphor!

let us assume for the sake of argument that God Is. Is it important to interpret the many expressions of man's articulation of who or what God may be? Is it not enough that God can communicate in words appropriate for one population and not appropriate for another. Cannot mankind experience the simple truths evident in the laws of nature and understand that God simply is without going nuts over words chosen to validate what they have been taught that their faith is?

Yes.

And I do not say this to mean that I have no strong beliefs. I surely do.

However, so do others.

I expect them to respect my beliefs, support me in my search and then let me live my beliefs as best I can. In return, I respect theirs, support them and let them live theirs as best they can.

Wait one doggone moment, here, Ed, :rolleyes: it's Wahabi not wasabi - geeeawddd - it's people like you &*(%)(&$* .....

Renauda wrote: Speaking for myself, that is the interpretaion I would use.

You do all realize that precisely this conversation is happening somewhere in the Islamic World, with "Christianity" substituted for the "Koran".... :rolleyes:

Excepting that this discussion won't bring to the members a song of the "fatwa blues".

True, though they may be substituting Monty Python's dancing cardinals in "Every sperm is sacred."

I have already explained why the first is a metaphor. You think the second is a metaphor for what, exactly? In addition to Jesus' words himself throughout the Gospels, the entirety of the New Testament makes clear the meaning.

If you think it means something else, I'm willing to listen to your thoughts.