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#761293 - 11/08/03 03:34 PM Au revoir les amis !  
Joined: Sep 2002
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benedict Offline
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This is my last post in the Coffee Room.

These conversations have been very rich and most times very friendly.

What happened lately in the "Blame it on the jews" thread and in the one about political correctness have really been much too serious.

Of course, I cannot explain and only a few of you must have been hurt by what the viciousness of the blows.

Maybe this forum is a game and it is for fun.

But I really put all my heart into it.

Well, I'll put my heart somewhere else. frown

Farewell to all my dear friends.

smile

PS You can always e-mail me if you want to tell me something nice or hear something nice.


Benedict
Piano & Music Accessories
#761294 - 11/08/03 03:44 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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John Andrew Offline
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And so....

Those who use personal attacks, who see nothing wrong in denigrating individuals, who state so confidently that opposing views are stupid or ignorant and the people who hold them even worse, have claimed another victim.

They must be proud of themselves. Or maybe they will simply quietly gloat over what they see as a victory.

I am sorry to see you go, Benedict, as I have been sorry to see and hear about others who have left because they simply are unwilling to deal with such viciousness.


You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards
#761295 - 11/08/03 04:43 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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JBryan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by John Andrew:
And so....

Those who use personal attacks, who see nothing wrong in denigrating individuals, who state so confidently that opposing views are stupid or ignorant and the people who hold them even worse, have claimed another victim.

Get off of your high horse John Andrew. Nobody did any of these things to Benedict.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
#761296 - 11/08/03 06:17 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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pianoseed Offline
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here
Benedict, I hate to see you go. I always enjoy your posts. I hope you will reconsider, but I understand why you feel the way you do. Good Luck


pianoseed
#761297 - 11/08/03 07:18 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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TomK Offline
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Au revoir benedict, bien que nous n'ayons jamais ete du meme cote des issues, je vous considere un adversaire valable et une bonne personne. Vous etes un homme decent et je vous admire pour lui. Et mon conseil personnel, ne prennent pas des choses tellement serieusement, vous vivra une plus longue vie plus heureuse.

#761298 - 11/08/03 09:01 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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jodi Offline
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You know, Tom - I half expected that to be full of insults, but it wasn't. It was very nice.

Goodbye, Benedict. I wish you would stay. I know that you feel that you talk until you are blue in the face, and you still cannot make people understand. That is true sometimes. But if you leave, you miss out on the chance that the more you let people get to know you, to read your thoughts, to like you, and to consider you a friend, the more they will be willing to listen to your point of view. And sometimes, you can even change their mind.

Best of luck, I will miss you.

smile Jodi

#761299 - 11/08/03 09:50 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Ahh, Benedict, the coffee room is not for sensitive souls, nor left-leaning ones, I'm afraid. But then, what would they do without a few scapegoats! eek
I'm here for now, until I've been hurled that final insulting blow that catapults me out, once and for all. And, there's John Andrew, who seems to be able to let it all roll off as he keeps returning for more abuse. And the dear Picque and Ariel who so eloquantly express their points of view, but none too often. No, I think what the coffee room is meant to be is a right wing coffee Klatcsh - and it's heading there quickly. smile

#761300 - 11/08/03 09:58 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Renauda Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by kathyk:
No, I think what the coffee room is meant to be is a right wing coffee Klatcsh - and it's heading there quickly. smile
Not if I can help it. This *Savoyard* hasn't even started to scrap.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
#761301 - 11/08/03 10:29 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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jkeene Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Renauda:
This *Savoyard* hasn't even started to scrap.
Rumour has it that after John Paul Jones uttered his famous quote "I have not yet begun to fight", one deckhand remarked to another "There's always someone that doesn't get the word."

#761302 - 11/08/03 10:36 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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TomK Offline
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Quote
Posted by kathy: the coffee room is not for sensitive souls,
Hay kathy,

That's funny, because I'm a sensitive soul and I do just fine here!

And yes, some hearts are broken
And tho' some loose their way
There's also many kind bonds unspoken
Between posters in this little play

We laugh, we fight, we share our lives
We live from day to day
Then move on to places otherwise
When there's nothing left to say. smile

#761303 - 11/08/03 10:56 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Dwain Lee Offline
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Benedict, reconsider. The Coffe Room can be boisterous, but only because real life, and the open exchange of ideas is boisterous. I haven't read the "Blame it on the Jews" thread, but I understand that it got ugly. I don't have the time or desire to wade through it, so I don't know what was said.

But...

We all have opinions that we hold passionately. Whether we all agree on those opinions - and obviously couldn't - the passion with which we hold our own opinions is evidence that all of us here are thinking, intelligent people. We are not the apathetic mass. We are not part of the problem. While our differences aren't always pleasant, the reason for the differences is proof that we're all good people worth listening to. And despite the claims of some, the vitriol is not limited to only one side of the political spectrum. Both sides have combatants that can sling mud as well as anyone on the opposing side.

You and I have had a few testy moments in the past ourselves. Yet despite our differences, I never thought ill of you, and I would hope the feeling was mutual.

If you leave, I'll respect your decision. But if you do, the conversations here will have lost a very eloquent participant, always giving food for thought and intelligent point/counterpoint. I hope you stay.

#761304 - 11/08/03 11:09 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Renauda Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jkeene:
[QUOTE]Rumour has it that after John Paul Jones...
Who was he, some relative of the Pope or ancestor of the Bass player for Led Zeppelin? Dosen't matter anyway as he would have been no match for Nelson, Hood or Collingwood.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
#761305 - 11/08/03 11:15 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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jkeene Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Renauda:
... he would have been no match for Nelson, Hood or Collingwood.
Or Russell Crowe.

#761306 - 11/08/03 11:17 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Renauda Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jkeene:
Quote
Originally posted by Renauda:
[b] ... he would have been no match for Nelson, Hood or Collingwood.
Or Russell Crowe. [/b]
Or Peter O'Toole


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
#761307 - 11/08/03 11:25 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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jodi Offline
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For the record, I have never thought of the coffee room as a haven for the right wingers. I think BOTH sides (and a few up and downs as well) do a pretty darn good job of expressing themselves eloquently, as well as occasionally making complete asses out of themselves. :p

And just because they aren't posting, doesn't mean there aren't a heck of a lot of people out there reading and thinking "Yeah! What s/he said!"

smile Jodi

#761308 - 11/09/03 12:18 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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TomK Offline
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Jody, you are exactly right...except it seems that here on this Forum (and in life in general,) Liberals tend to be Drama Queens.

Read benedict's and John Andrew's and Kathy with a K's posts and you can almost imagine the veins bulging in their neck from shrillness as they typed. They are all chewing scenery and playing to the crowds.

Look, benedict has picked up his marbles and has gone away before--and he came back. If he wanted to go he'd just go, but no, he's playing the grand exit. And look at pique. She has sung her death scene from Madam Butterfly twice as far as I remember and keeps coming back to life.

This is just Grand Opera--Liberal Style.

#761309 - 11/09/03 12:40 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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piqué Offline
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benedict,
i imagine i know how you feel, as i've also taken extended coffee room breaks, and for very similar reasons.

we are idealists. we hope that we can turn hearts with our words, and it is so bitterly disappointing sometimes when we see that there are a lot of hearts in the world that have no intention of turning.

if it were not for you, and ariel, and several others, i probably would not have revealed my ethnic roots. it is still that vulnerable a thing to do. you never know how people will react.

the reactions here, in the coffee room, from some people, have been quite ugly. i don't blame you for walking away from that. when i first sensed this sentiment among a certain segment of the population here, i also walked away. who wants to deal with that? why should we?

i came back to the coffee room because you are here. because of several others who are here, who helped to improve the tenor of this place. if everyone who really cares and puts their hearts into what they write leaves, then this will indeed become a souless place.

i guess that is OK. the people who are still here that i feel safe with i doubt will leave piano world altogether, even if they do leave the coffee room.

i hope when you say you are leaving the coffee room, that means i will still find you in the pianist's corner. i have loved the coversations we have had there.

consider this, benedict: the coffee room reveals to us the other side. in real life we don't surround ourselves so much with others who think so differently than we do. the coffee room is an education in the diversity of world views that are out there. it is an education in tolerance.

i hope you'll be back, because your presence here is a very real blessing.


piqué

now in paperback:
[Linked Image]

Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey
#761310 - 11/09/03 01:06 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Larry Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by kathyk:
Ahh, Benedict, the coffee room is not for sensitive souls, nor left-leaning ones, I'm afraid. But then, what would they do without a few scapegoats! eek
I'm here for now, until I've been hurled that final insulting blow that catapults me out, once and for all. .....No, I think what the coffee room is meant to be is a right wing coffee Klatcsh - and it's heading there quickly. smile
As for Benedict leaving, that's his choice. He's given just as good as he's got, as they say. I enjoyed him, but if he's leaving because he didn't like the debates that happen here, then *he's* the one with the problem.

As for you, Kathy.... if you'll remember, you came here right out of the gate announcing your intent to kick some conservative butt. What you found was not that conservatives were ganging up on you - what you found out, and maybe it came as a shock to you or something, was that conservatives actually have brains, and can kick butt back.

This forum is a slice or reality, not the sheltered little world you (not aimed at anyone in particular - just a generic "you") comfortably choose to surround yourself in. In your world, you associate with like minded people, so you assume the majority of people think like you do. You come to a place like this, and you find out that not only do a lot of people *not* think like you do, a lot of them are just as smart as you are, and just as able to defend their views as you are. *Now* you have a debate.

You're a lawyer - you should know that debates can get quite heated. I don't think a single person here on *either* side of an issue harbors any ill toward anyone else. I know I don't. I like every single person here. I even like John Andrews..... though I find him to be the most confused person I've ever tried to communicate with. Just because someone defends their position forcefully does not mean they are mean, or a bully. Everyone needs to keep in perspective the fact that we came here to discuss things, to argue our viewpoints, and that no ill will is intended from anyone - don't take things so thin skinned. You're among friends - if they weren't your friend, they wouldn't be here debating you. It's because they enjoy the debate. If you are losing the debate, don't start whining that you're being ganged up on. It's just a debate - none of us are going to change anything. So we should keep a spirit of enjoying ourselves, and remember we are among friends.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#761311 - 11/09/03 01:51 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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CA.
Benedict,

Ah, so sad to see you go. But I understand your reasons. "Kindness is my religion"...The Dalai Lama. I've always thought this described you. I hope you will still visit the Pianist's Corner. I will miss your inspirational words.

pdolce frown smile


But, I played it perfectly at home!!
#761312 - 11/09/03 02:19 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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JBryan Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by piqu:

we are idealists. we hope that we can turn hearts with our words, and it is so bitterly disappointing sometimes when we see that there are a lot of hearts in the world that have no intention of turning.
TomK has it right on the money.

Quote
if it were not for you, and ariel, and several others, i probably would not have revealed my ethnic roots. it is still that vulnerable a thing to do. you never know how people will react.
Ah yes, that pervasive, ugly, and, to the untrained eye, totally invisible anti-semitism.

It is this type of slander that truly disgusts me.

I suppose I should be considered to be among the (wonder of wonders, very many) hard boiled here. No grand exits, no whining about how mean everyone is to me. Just give and take as it goes. I think some are just unhappy that anyone would dare to disagree with the "received" wisdom. Big news flash. The received wisdom has no clothes.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
#761313 - 11/09/03 04:51 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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benedict Offline
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European Union
Thank you for the kind words of farewell.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I have never been bothered by differences of opinions. On the contrary, and I wrote that repeatedly, I thought that truth was in the overall process and not in partial visions.

I was friendly with everybody and times and again pointed to the necessity of fighting ideas but not people.

It is not my ideas that have been attacked but my person.
And the people who did that thought it was funny.

I started a post where I mentioned the prejudice against "coloured people". I remember the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured people. I remember the Jews that fought in Mississipi and the South for Civil Rights.


And I was called a racist and a nazi by people who speak in a really evil way and are at the same time very popular in this Coffee Room. They behave like members of a gang.
They do not deserve any respect.

They lost mine because they think they have all the rights.

These people are so ready to hurt and insult.

These people do not understand why I leave.

How can you understand when you are stuck on one program and never change anything or try and understand anything ? When your intelligence and you heart are two different things.

There is the Joker, a poor fellow who does know much about who he is and who loves to lash out and call people names. He probably dreams of when lashing out was called pogroms. He is the ultimate ladies man. A repulsive person. I wonder if the female members of this forum feel offended, disgusted or moved by his style.
I'd feel sad.
In case you have not recognized him, this is the one who calls me a Drama Queen when I cannot accept my country and my people to be openly insulted. Drama Queen. You pogromist vicious self infatuated selfloathing Peter Pan with the hangman's grin. You will never stand up to your father's expectations of what it takes to be a man. You never had a chance from the start.
I am sure you will find a new scapegoat pretty soon.


There is the Bully of all bullies. I won't say anything. You all admire him.
I don't anymore. He crossed the line.

And there is the moderate rightwinger who does not understand why I leave the Coffee Room.
I am amazed. He usually explains everybody how to look at the facts.
Well he just and to read and read again the two threads and if still does not understand, he can always ask sensible people like Renauda to explain what he failed to understand.

But his analysis of the beauty of the rightwing vision of the world have lost all credibility.His intelligence does not have a heart.

I am happy to say that the Cajun hunter has behaved decently. I only wish he had not started that awful thread.

He may consider Jews as paranoid as he wishes.
When 6 million Cajuns will have been murdered, he'll decide how he chooses to feel.

And I am thankful to the one hates France so much not to have given tough love to Jews in this ugly incident.
He just kept quiet.


All along, I thought exchanging was helpful.

But I did not mean exchanging insults and namecalling. And I thought honesty was a value.

Maybe Apple was misunderstood. Maybe she answered Jolly question : "Why have the Jews consistantly hated throughout history ?" by giving a reason why people blamed Jews.
Maybe she meant "People who hate jews blamed them for...".
Maybe the hypersensitive Jews jumped to quick to conclusions.
Maybe when she said "I looked at Fortune 500" she meant...
You all know she meant what she meant.

And I was amazed how Ariel and Pique tried to explain the rhetoric of antisemitism without once attacking Apple personally.

There was no question in their mind (and Nina and Shantinik and the Savoyard) that it was important to put things in the open because too many have suffered and will suffer.

I finished by telling Apple how I liked her and proposed to move on and let it all sink in.

But then, the pogrom clown called me a Nazi.
He thought it was a funnny and clever thing to do : trap me in my own value system.
And he did that in a thread about pc by someone who considers words as effective as bullets when they are meant for destruction.

And the Bully of all bullies said : "Great, now you have apologized, let Ariel and Pique apologize".
Apologize for what ? For explaining that words that come naturally belong to the same tree that have many Jews still now fearing for their dignity and safety ?

Nina went into Fortune and did not find more than two Jews in the 20 richest people in the US.

Imagine : she had to look. Why did she have to look ? You don't have to look to know all about Jews, all. Pople cannot be wrong all of the time.

If it is OK with you to laugh at such people's jokes, then, just laugh. As long as they do not laugh at you as persons.

I did not consider myself a liberal but more a middle of the road person.

These ugly people have changed my vision. You cannot stay in the middle of the road. I now consider myself a liberal like in respect and sensitivity. Understanding and win-win solutions.

I will choose aikido and taichichuan over American football and love of guns. It is not about winning. It is about living and loving.
And it is not always an easy task.

And I will spend my time in places where respect is a prerequisite.

So thank you for those who have been happy to create more understanding and the rest don't need anything. They think they are the salt of the earth.That's what they think and they are the one who scream with hated and love crucifying people who are alive and gentle.

If I believed in a God who cared for individuals, I am certain He would be ashamed to have such worshippers. They are the ones who will stone the weaker till the end of times.
They are so energetic.

I will not come back.
There is pride. But there is dignity.

My last words : be careful not to allow personal insults.
They shame not only the one they crucify.
They shame those who laugh.
They shame those who do nothing to stop them.

Being friendly means telling when things are not acceptable.

Goodbye.


Benedict
#761314 - 11/09/03 09:30 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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TomK Offline
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benedict's first curtain call.

benedict, I believe you actually have no idea why I and the others jumped all over you. Though, you do an excellent job feeling sorry for yourself.

I am sad. frown

#761315 - 11/09/03 10:19 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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John Andrew Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by TomK:

benedict, I believe you actually have no idea why I and the others jumped all over you. Though, you do an excellent job feeling sorry for yourself.
Then explaim to me, Tom. What was going through your mind when you called a man of Jewish heritage a Nazi when he was trying to explain why Jews are so sensitive and was being told HE was the one who did not understand?

Explain to me why you would call anyone a Nazi, much less a Jew, much less a European Jew who undoubtedly has witnessed and dealt with the results of Nazism more directly than Jews outside of Europe and certainly in ways you and I and other non-Jews will never understand.

Yes, Tom. Please explain to me just why you were justified in doing that. And explain to me why Benedict's anger and hurt over this is just his feeling sorry for himself.

Or was this just another one of your funny jokes and we should all have just laughed about it because, after all, calling a Jew a Nazi in the middle of a heated argument about impact of anti-semeticism in the world is really just light-hearted fun? You way of lightening the mood?

Explain it to me, Tom. By your response above, you obviously feel justified in having done so. You obviously feel the problem is Benedict's. So, explain it to me.

Because I don't understand it either.


You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards
#761316 - 11/09/03 11:17 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Larry Offline
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Benedict,

It is obvious that you are referring to me as the "bully of all bullies". I apparently gave you more credit than you deserve for being intelligent.

While there is apparently no need for you to do so having shown you aren't capable of it, anyone else who is interested can go back and look at what I said. I simply took what was done to Apple, and did it to Benedict - to try and make a point. I was very clear in telling him *right in the same post* and in subsequent posts, that I didn't believe these things were true of him, and I even went so far as to openly explain to him what I was doing.

Maybe now you know how Apple felt, Benedict. Apple had her words twisted, added to, and given meaning that wasn't there. A big stink erupted where you, Ariel, and Pique, began to call her antisemitic even though she isn't, based on the *new* meaning given to it by Ariel. So I took your words, which were innocent as well, added to them, twisted their meaning, and called you a racist based on what *I* said. All to try and make a point. Instead of seeing this, instead of seeing the line after line after line of me telling you both that I knew you weren't guilty of these things, and how it was done to make a point, you missed it all. You are so concerned about your own feelings, yet you have no concern for the feelings of others. All you're doing with your "Grand Exit" is proving the existence of that huge chip on your shoulder.

Bully? No. You were the bully. You, Ariel, and Pique were the bullies. And you, Benedict, have proven to be incapable of seeing anything other than what matters to you, which apparently is yourself. You couldn't focus on what was done to Apple for seeing yourself. You couldn't understand why and what I did to you for thinking of yourself.

This mess started with a White Southern Male "Fundamentalist" Christian being concerned about the way Jews were being treated around the world, and wanted to discuss it. He didn't like it. In fact, I haven't read a single word from anyone here who liked it. But did you notice? No. All you noticed was what you wanted to notice - an opportunity for the chip on your shoulder to fall off.

I will not sit still while you call me a bully when all I was doing was defending a woman against an uncalled for attack. Fortunately, Benedict, I won't react the way you have. I won't turn my back on Jews just because a few have proven to be thin skinned, demanding we accept anything they claim to be a slur against Jews as fact. I will continue to hold my previous beliefs - that Jews are being unfairly treated around the world, that they are just as good and as worthy as me, and that hatred of another person because of their race or ethnicity is wrong. But it won't be because of anything done here. So if you want to wear your Jewishness and your selfish views on your shoulder, go ahead. Just don't let the door hit you on your way out.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#761317 - 11/09/03 11:43 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Jolly Offline
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No, maybe something gets lost in the cultural differences, but it was easliy apparrent what TomK was doing. He was taking the most heinous example he could think of, and applying it to a person he knew was not guilty of that level of predjudice.

He was trying to make a point with a sledgehammer, after simple protestation, and explanation had failed to dissuade anybody of their preconceived beliefs.

It wasn't rocket science.


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#761318 - 11/09/03 11:48 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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piqué Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by benedict:
Thank you for the kind words of farewell.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I have never been bothered by differences of opinions. On the contrary, and I wrote that repeatedly, I thought that truth was in the overall process and not in partial visions.

I was friendly with everybody and times and again pointed to the necessity of fighting ideas but not people.

It is not my ideas that have been attacked but my person.
And the people who did that thought it was funny.

I started a post where I mentioned the prejudice against "coloured people". I remember the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured people. I remember the Jews that fought in Mississipi and the South for Civil Rights.


And I was called a racist and a nazi by people who speak in a really evil way and are at the same time very popular in this Coffee Room. They behave like members of a gang.
They do not deserve any respect.

They lost mine because they think they have all the rights.

These people are so ready to hurt and insult.

These people do not understand why I leave.

How can you understand when you are stuck on one program and never change anything or try and understand anything ? When your intelligence and you heart are two different things.

There is the Joker, a poor fellow who does know much about who he is and who loves to lash out and call people names. He probably dreams of when lashing out was called pogroms. He is the ultimate ladies man. A repulsive person. I wonder if the female members of this forum feel offended, disgusted or moved by his style.
I'd feel sad.
In case you have not recognized him, this is the one who calls me a Drama Queen when I cannot accept my country and my people to be openly insulted. Drama Queen. You pogromist vicious self infatuated selfloathing Peter Pan with the hangman's grin. You will never stand up to your father's expectations of what it takes to be a man. You never had a chance from the start.
I am sure you will find a new scapegoat pretty soon.


There is the Bully of all bullies. I won't say anything. You all admire him.
I don't anymore. He crossed the line.

And there is the moderate rightwinger who does not understand why I leave the Coffee Room.
I am amazed. He usually explains everybody how to look at the facts.
Well he just and to read and read again the two threads and if still does not understand, he can always ask sensible people like Renauda to explain what he failed to understand.

But his analysis of the beauty of the rightwing vision of the world have lost all credibility.His intelligence does not have a heart.

I am happy to say that the Cajun hunter has behaved decently. I only wish he had not started that awful thread.

He may consider Jews as paranoid as he wishes.
When 6 million Cajuns will have been murdered, he'll decide how he chooses to feel.

And I am thankful to the one hates France so much not to have given tough love to Jews in this ugly incident.
He just kept quiet.


All along, I thought exchanging was helpful.

But I did not mean exchanging insults and namecalling. And I thought honesty was a value.

Maybe Apple was misunderstood. Maybe she answered Jolly question : "Why have the Jews consistantly hated throughout history ?" by giving a reason why people blamed Jews.
Maybe she meant "People who hate jews blamed them for...".
Maybe the hypersensitive Jews jumped to quick to conclusions.
Maybe when she said "I looked at Fortune 500" she meant...
You all know she meant what she meant.

And I was amazed how Ariel and Pique tried to explain the rhetoric of antisemitism without once attacking Apple personally.

There was no question in their mind (and Nina and Shantinik and the Savoyard) that it was important to put things in the open because too many have suffered and will suffer.

I finished by telling Apple how I liked her and proposed to move on and let it all sink in.

But then, the pogrom clown called me a Nazi.
He thought it was a funnny and clever thing to do : trap me in my own value system.
And he did that in a thread about pc by someone who considers words as effective as bullets when they are meant for destruction.

And the Bully of all bullies said : "Great, now you have apologized, let Ariel and Pique apologize".
Apologize for what ? For explaining that words that come naturally belong to the same tree that have many Jews still now fearing for their dignity and safety ?

Nina went into Fortune and did not find more than two Jews in the 20 richest people in the US.

Imagine : she had to look. Why did she have to look ? You don't have to look to know all about Jews, all. Pople cannot be wrong all of the time.

If it is OK with you to laugh at such people's jokes, then, just laugh. As long as they do not laugh at you as persons.

I did not consider myself a liberal but more a middle of the road person.

These ugly people have changed my vision. You cannot stay in the middle of the road. I now consider myself a liberal like in respect and sensitivity. Understanding and win-win solutions.

I will choose aikido and taichichuan over American football and love of guns. It is not about winning. It is about living and loving.
And it is not always an easy task.

And I will spend my time in places where respect is a prerequisite.

So thank you for those who have been happy to create more understanding and the rest don't need anything. They think they are the salt of the earth.That's what they think and they are the one who scream with hated and love crucifying people who are alive and gentle.

If I believed in a God who cared for individuals, I am certain He would be ashamed to have such worshippers. They are the ones who will stone the weaker till the end of times.
They are so energetic.

I will not come back.
There is pride. But there is dignity.

My last words : be careful not to allow personal insults.
They shame not only the one they crucify.
They shame those who laugh.
They shame those who do nothing to stop them.

Being friendly means telling when things are not acceptable.

Goodbye.
i'm reposting this, benedict, because i want this post to stay. because you articulated so well what is wrong here.

Quote
I will spend my time in places where respect is a prerequisite.
a wise decision from a mensch. i'll look for you in those places, benedict.


piqué

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#761319 - 11/09/03 11:56 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Jolly Offline
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pique wrote:
Quote
i'm reposting this, benedict, because i want this post to stay. because you articulated so well what is wrong here.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will spend my time in places where respect is a prerequisite.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a wise decision from a mensch. i'll look for you in those places, benedict.
Respect flows both ways ma'am.


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Over 1.3M (and counting) posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.
#761320 - 11/09/03 11:57 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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John Andrew Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
No, maybe something gets lost in the cultural differences, but it was easliy apparrent what TomK was doing. He was taking the most heinous example he could think of, and applying it to a person he knew was not guilty of that level of predjudice.

He was trying to make a point with a sledgehammer, after simple protestation, and explanation had failed to dissuade anybody of their preconceived beliefs.

It wasn't rocket science.
Why thank you Jolly. How stupid of me not to see the kindness in Tom's comments -- especially when he reiterated it a second time when Benedict challenged him on it!

I'll watch for this kindness in the future. So much sweetness and light in calling Benedict a Nazi. Such a good man Tom is for having done this!

How could I have ever misunderstood calling a Jew a Nazi as anything but a kindly way of teaching him what he needs to know?


You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards
#761321 - 11/09/03 12:28 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Larry Offline
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Larry  Offline
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Deep in Cherokee Country
i'm reposting this, benedict, because i want this post to stay. because you articulated so well what is wrong here.


"What is wrong here"???


When someone mentions the word Indian, do you see me run out and start beating the crap out of people over the Trail of Tears? What is "wrong" here as far as *this* issue goes is a few Jews out *looking* for ways to get the chip knocked off their shoulder.

I emailed Rabbi Saxon and asked him to read this mess. He emailed me back. He said you three should be ashamed of yourselves. He said you were "Machen a Tzimmis". I don't know what it means, but he said it was clear as a bell to him that Apple was goaded into saying things only after having her words twisted, and that it was equally clear to him that I was not bullying Benedict, but that Benedict simply didn't want to hear what I was saying. In general, he said he felt the three of you brought it on yourselves.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
#761322 - 11/09/03 12:38 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !  
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Renauda Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by John Andrew:
Quote
Originally posted by Jolly:
[b] No, maybe something gets lost in the cultural differences, but it was easliy apparrent what TomK was doing. He was taking the most heinous example he could think of, and applying it to a person he knew was not guilty of that level of predjudice....

Why thank you Jolly. How stupid of me not to see the kindness in Tom's comments -- especially when he reiterated it a second time when Benedict challenged him on it!

I'll watch for this kindness in the future.... [/b]
John you have come across a stylistic tactic repeatedly used to great effect by J.V. Stalin, to justify the use of police terror. It points out the errors of the person of group (the cause)while at the same time distancing the source from the action (the effect). In this way Stalin was seen as kindly father figure who was deceived by corrupt bureaucrats and enemies of the people.

Cultural differences, my foot. It was plain and simple out of line and totally tactless.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
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