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Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756463 04/10/03 05:26 PM
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I agree


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756464 04/10/03 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by Derick:
It seems to me that your only quibble with Bush is that he the courage to lead a coalition of nations to enforce the multilateral resolution the UN arrived at, but never bothered to enforce, in 12 years.
Not quite. I certainly wouldn't call it "courage". More like an impatient dismissal of other key Security Council members who were simply asking for more time to determine IF IN FACT Iraq REALLY possessed the WMD's that he insisted they did. But it was pretty much clear all along that his real agenda was to effect a "regime change" there anyway, the results of which remain to be seen.

Why then didn't he have the "courage" to lay his cards on the table with those other Security Council members(or the rest of the world for that matter)and simply ask them to support this goal of regime change? Because he knew they'd reject it outright, and that it would be a clear violation of international law to invade a sovereign country unless it clearly invaded another nation(something Bush I, in contrast BTW, managed to accomplish because of the invasion of Kuwait).

Mark@pianosource.com

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756465 04/10/03 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by reblder:
More like an impatient dismissal of other key Security Council members who were simply asking for more time to determine IF IN FACT Iraq REALLY possessed the WMD's that he insisted they did.
Why would they need to do that? They all signed on to Resolution 1441. Maybe you need to read it. It stipulated that Saddam Hussein had such weapons and required that he prove (to the inspectors) that they had been destroyed. When are people going to realize that the inspectors were not in Iraq to find anything.

By the way, this nuclear facility they are talking about with the off-scale radiation readings is an area where these inspectors had been recently. It appears that, even if they were supposed to look for this stuff, they weren't really very good at discovering it.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756466 04/10/03 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by reblder:

Not quite. I certainly wouldn't call it "courage". More like an impatient dismissal of other key Security Council members who were simply asking for more time to determine IF IN FACT Iraq REALLY possessed the WMD's that he insisted they did.


I agree. Bush and his "ilk" are being cowards. A *real* man would have ignored his oath of office, understood that our country is a subject of the UN and subordinated our interests to that body, had the good sense to know that 12 years is just simply not long enough a period of time to expect anyone to do anything, and would have done what the American taxpayer was paying him to do and gone and gotten himself a Lewinski.

Quote

But it was pretty much clear all along that his real agenda was to effect a "regime change" there anyway, the results of which remain to be seen.


Is it dark in there, Mark? wink

Quote

Why then didn't he have the "courage" to lay his cards on the table with those other Security Council members(or the rest of the world for that matter)and simply ask them to support this goal of regime change? Because he knew they'd reject it outright, and that it would be a clear violation of international law to invade a sovereign country unless it clearly invaded another nation(something Bush I, in contrast BTW, managed to accomplish because of the invasion of Kuwait).

Mark@pianosource.com
Again, I agree with you, Mark! And we should go back and punish those who had the audacity to attack Hitler.

The *nerve* of that George Bush to have the gall to actually uphold his oath of office and put our national security ahead of what's *really* important - worrying about what other nations who hate us think?.....

:rolleyes:

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756467 04/11/03 12:55 AM
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Gee Mark, after 12 years and 17 UN resolutions that Saddam blatantly defied, the ever impatient, unilateralist, Bush sought out yet *ANOTHER* UN resolution (1441).

Yep, Bush really should have given Iraq more time to comply, and he should have sought additional UN resolutions (1442, 1443, 1444, 1445, etc...) until the UN approved a final resolution, resolution 1679, which would claim support of the enforcement for all 238 prior resolutions concerning Iraq. Pending, of course, a vote on resolution 1680 authorizing such enforcement as outlined in resolution 1681 using vague and esoteric language as to what is considered proper enforcement, which will later be drawn up in resolution 1682.

Derick


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756468 04/11/03 04:57 PM
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Since when is an effort supported by 36+ nations, unilaterist?

Derick[/QB][/QUOTE]

I was truly reassured when I saw that Angola was replaced by Palau! (maybe it should have been called the "coalition of the very small" wink )

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756469 04/11/03 06:05 PM
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I see, and all of the coalition partners were very small like Palau? Do you really want to go there? We could just as easily say that the coalition of the unwilling included many of the nastiest dictatorships on earth. What does that make France and Germany?


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756470 04/11/03 06:29 PM
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"Even smoking gun won't make difference to some"

That's right, it won't. That's because I assume that chemical and bio weapons will in due course be found in Iraq. If Saddam didn't have anything to hide, why did he kick the UN inspectors out five or so years ago?

And not because I think there is anything particularly bad about our invading a sovereign state with only the flimsiest of excuses. The world would be a better place if we were simply to march into most of the middle east capitals, kick out the incumbents and then nurture a democratic political system.

The reason I thought (and still think) that our Iraqi adventure is probably a bad idea is that I don't think we have the staying power necessary to really rebuild the Iraqi social polity. We won't want to spend the money and we won't want to commit the human resources necessary to do so. As a result, unless we are lucky as heck, and stumble onto the George Washington of Iraq, we stand a very good chance of falling flat on our faces and looking to an increasingly hostile Arab world like imperialists and bungling imperialists to boot.

The military victory is the easy part. Finding the WMD will be easy, too. But the long-term commitment of treasure and people needed to carry our policy to a successful conclusion will be very hard to find and sustain. And it will all be done (or not done) on the unblinking eye of TV cameras beaming into every household in the middle east.

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756471 04/11/03 06:43 PM
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Q: What is the numerical difference between the number of nations that supported the first Gulf War, vs the second?

A: 5 (41 vs 36)

Bunch of difference, isn't it? wink


TNCR. Over 20 years. Over 2,000,000 posts. And a new site...

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Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756472 04/11/03 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by JBryan:
I see, and all of the coalition partners were very small like Palau? Do you really want to go there? We could just as easily say that the coalition of the unwilling included many of the nastiest dictatorships on earth. What does that make France and Germany?
On the contrary -- you're making my point for me. The entire conversation about coalitions is irrelevant. This was a war between the U.S. and Iraq, period. Some countries lined up behind the U.S. because they thought they had something to gain from the U.S. by doing so (I'm sure Palau did not feel threatened by the Iraqis!), some few (like Syria) lined up behind Iraq because they thought they had something to gain (in this case, in the eyes of Arabs) by doing so, and some governments stayed away because they thought they had something to gain by doing so.

The military outcome of the war was decided even before it started, although given the propaganda war, there were some surprises. Contrary to what Rumsfeld said, Iraq had no SCUD missiles, and contrary to what Rumsfeld suggested, no missiles of any kind were fired at Israel. Contrary to what Rumsfeld and military planners publicly stated, Iraq used neither biological nor chemical weapons against U.S. soldiers. We do know that at some point, Iraq had weapons of mass destruction; we know this because the U.S. gave them to him. But, if they haven't been destroyed, they sure have been few and far between, and certainly not a threat to the U.S., as they weren't even used against invading soldiers!

The chemical weapons plant that Powell showed on tv turned out to be a military headquarters of a small Kurdish political party, in U.S. controlled territory. The citation Powell gave to the United Nations regarding WMD turned out to be cribbed from an English graduate students' paper, about conditions that existed in 1991. I believe he did this honestly -- I think he tends toward being a little dense rather than Machievellian, but I know there are others who think otherwise. No links to 9/11 have ever been found.

I think Saddam Hussein was a very bad man. I don't think the fact that he was a very bad man had much if anything to do with the military attack -- after all, there are LOTS of bad leaders in the world who go about their business doing their wicked deeds every day.

Oddly enough, as a pacifist, I did NOT find the war particularly upsetting -- even during the war, more people likely died from the results of the sanctions -- results of poor water systems, and lack of medical supplies -- than did from U.S. military action. We can blame Hussein for this or the U.S. -- and I don't particularly care one way or the other (the 500,000+ children who died don't care either.) Maybe more will now live as a result, or maybe not -- we'll see, won't we?

I do think the U.S. is now significantly less safe than before the war. Honestly, I really do. I think we have more enemies, and even where we have not made enemies, I think we are less trusted. My country has closed a lot of doors that I wish might have remained open, and I hope we work as hard to reopen them as we did in closing them through, yes, I say it, in the unilateral military effort.

I remain hopeful because I know there are lots of good people in the world, and some of them (you!) even play pianos.

And, JBryan, you are looking better as Presidential material every day!
smile

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756473 04/11/03 07:35 PM
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Shan:
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The entire conversation about coalitions is irrelevant. This was a war between the U.S. and Iraq, period. Some countries lined up behind the U.S. because they thought they had something to gain from the U.S. by doing so
a) Not precisely irrelevant, some people seem to think UN coalitions are important b) Pretty much, yes, although all nations benefit from decreased terrorism c) good point for pointing out the silliness of the UN. [Linked Image]
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Iraq had no SCUD missiles
I may be wrong, but I thought a SCUD or two hit Kuwait. In addition, we had US Special Forces and the UK SAS in there months ahead of time taking those sites out.
Quote
we know this because the U.S. gave them to him.
Bzzzt. Cite.

The rest of your post doesn't surprize me. Unfortunately. It's not just you, Shan, it's people who refuse to do what is right. Or perhaps we just differ in what we think is right.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756474 04/11/03 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by gryphon:
Shan:
Quote
Iraq had no SCUD missiles
I may be wrong, but I thought a SCUD or two hit Kuwait.

----Nope. At least not according to the newspapers. They weren't SCUDs, but short-range missiles.

In addition, we had US Special Forces and the UK SAS in there months ahead of time taking those sites out.

---I take your word for it (though not even Rumsfeld claimed that is what was happening. But, if true, it is a good argument that the war was unnecessary.

Quote
we know this because the U.S. gave them to him.
Bzzzt. Cite.

--(Try the two books by William Blum, former CIA agent.)

The rest of your post doesn't surprize me.

---Glad I can provide some consistency in your life.

Unfortunately. It's not just you, Shan, it's people who refuse to do what is right. Or perhaps we just differ in what we think is right.
smile

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756475 04/11/03 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by shantinik:
Quote
Originally posted by gryphon:
[b]Shan:
Quote
Iraq had no SCUD missiles
I may be wrong, but I thought a SCUD or two hit Kuwait.

----Nope. At least not according to the newspapers. They weren't SCUDs, but short-range missiles.

In addition, we had US Special Forces and the UK SAS in there months ahead of time taking those sites out.

---I take your word for it (though not even Rumsfeld claimed that is what was happening. But, if true, it is a good argument that the war was unnecessary.

Quote
we know this because the U.S. gave them to him.
Bzzzt. Cite.

--(Try the two books by William Blum, former CIA agent.)

The rest of your post doesn't surprize me.

---Glad I can provide some consistency in your life.

Unfortunately. It's not just you, Shan, it's people who refuse to do what is right. Or perhaps we just differ in what we think is right.
--We do. Such is what makes the world go round, and I certainly don't hold it against you. We are all shaped by our experiences, aren't we?

You are now having a reasonable conversation with probably the most anti-authoritarian (that is -- anti-Stalinist -- I'm a "minus 9"), and anti-capitalist (I'm a minus 8.9") you have ever met, and it's not too bad, is it? I'll bet that if we made a list of the things we want for our kids, our lists would be more than 50% the same, even if might have extremely different views on how to get there.

Pianos can transform the world! )[/b]
wink

Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756476 04/11/03 08:16 PM
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On the contrary -- you're making my point for me. The entire conversation about coalitions is irrelevant. This was a war between the U.S. and Iraq, period. Some countries lined up behind the U.S. because they thought they had something to gain from the U.S. by doing so (I'm sure Palau did not feel threatened by the Iraqis!), some few (like Syria) lined up behind Iraq because they thought they had something to gain (in this case, in the eyes of Arabs) by doing so, and some governments stayed away because they thought they had something to gain by doing so.
I made this point? You sure take great liberties with interpreting what points I am making. The rest of what you posted makes just as much sense which is, to say, very little.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756477 04/11/03 08:17 PM
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Ha, Shan, your post is exactly what I expected. Thanks for providing some consistency in my life, as you said. Yes, I suspect we differ in what we think is right. Yes, I know you are quite the anti-authoritarian. Unfortunately if the entire US was made up of Shantiniks or Mennonites we'd be in trouble. And you know it's not because you and Mennonites are bad, it's because THEY are bad (shhh...you know, *them*). wink

Re Special Forces in Iraq, Rumsfeld may not have spoken about it, but the news has. In addition, one or more books was written after the first Gulf War that detailed SAS involvement before and during the war. There is a lot of stuff talked about in the book (w/pictures) that was not widely known, if at all, on the nightly news. I'd be happy to send it to you but I gave my copy to a local prison for their library (really, I did).

Holy cow! There's a lot of books out now about the Gulf War. The one was referring to was:

[Linked Image]


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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Re: Thoughts on the Aftermath
#756478 04/11/03 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by gryphon:
Ha, Shan, your post is exactly what I expected. Thanks for providing some consistency in my life, as you said. Yes, I suspect we differ in what we think is right. Yes, I know you are quite the anti-authoritarian. Unfortunately if the entire US was made up of Shantiniks or Mennonites we'd be in trouble. And you know it's not because you and Mennonites are bad, it's because THEY are bad (shhh...you know, *them*). wink
Well, I think you are pretty safe on that score, yes?
:p And I think I am pretty safe in knowing that the entire U.S. is not and will not be made up of Gryphons! wink

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