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Kathy wrote:
Having not the time to research the accuracy and context of your quote, in short, NO. I do, however, have a great deal of respect for him both as an artist and as a social commentator of our times. And Charleston Heston is no one I'd one to encounter in a dark alley or a dark bedroom.

Kathy, what do you actually know about Charleston Heston? Do you have reason to believe him to be a dangerous person? Do you have justifiable evidence that he is evil or something? Or is your distaste for the man purely based on your hatred of all things conservative, or anyone who believes we have a right to own a weapon?

I had planned to go a little easy on you since you seem to not be able to handle anyone challenging your opinions. But this is a clearcut example of bias and prejudice driving opinion. And it shows you to be intellectually dishonest. You are an attorney for Gob's sake. You didn't become an attorney by being stupid. You have to be an intelligent woman. Why can you not see how utterly transparent you are in this?

You are told that Spike Lee said that Heston should be murdered. Your response was to not only dismiss it, but to go on and tell us of your admiration of the man as a social commentator. Then, the man you know *nothing* about - the man that Lee said should be murdered - the man who's only "crime" that you can point to is being a Conservative who believes in the Constitutional right to bear arms.... you portray as a sinister, evil, and dangerous man.

Let me tell you a little about Charlton Heston. He is a family man, married to the same woman since the early 40s. In an industry where everyone is sleeping with everyone else, he has remained faithful to his wife all those years. Not all his political activities fit with what you would think of as "right wing". He marched right along side Martin Luther King in Selma. You often talk about your church involvement, so I assume that has meaning to you - Charlton Heston is a deeply religious man, and has literally recorded the entire Bible on tape. Do you know how long one has to work to do a dramatic reading of the entire Bible? Do you know what kind of commitment to his beliefs that required? He has been a model citizen his entire life. There is not one ounce of scandal you can find about the man.

Spike Lee on the other hand, has a long history of racist remarks, and has shown a consistent and deep seated hatred of white people.

You will *never* figure out a thing as long as you remain so dedicated to your "position" that you cannot think any clearer than this examples shows. My goodness......

Kathy, you can be assured he said that. It was big news at the time (in some circles). Probably not the NY Times. And since you have respect for Spike Lee's artistry and social commentary, perhaps you can tell me one or two things of his you admire and why (not entire films, but specific sections). No, not true. For example, you have posted quite a few articles with so called "facts" used to buttress the stated opinion, but when the "facts" were shown to be misrepresentations or even outright lies you ran away. Don't be afraid of what you believe or the truth, even if they're not always the same thing.

An opinion devoid of intellectually honest underpinnings is not equally as valid as another that is not, and until you confront this you and your like-minded friends will continue to be the 40-year old equivalent of a 4-year old afraid of the bogeyman under her bed.

I recall once when Charlton Heston and Carl Reiner got together in support of some California tobacco tax initiative (some people got a great deal of amusement from calling it the "Moses and Meathead Initiative"). Not exactly what you would expect from a hidebound ideologue. Of course, whether or not he is a hidebound ideologue should be light years separated from the question of whether he is actually a dangerous individual. I was, frankly, shocked by this characterization of Charlton Heston by kathyk. In fact, I should think that she would be only too happy to meet Mr. Heston in a dark alley or anywhere else for that matter. Especially given the choice of what might actually be found in a dark alley.

What, am I on assignment? Yes, I have it. It doesn't matter, though, apple can't even listen to mp3s. Look for it Sunday.

I told her I found an arrangement for bagpipes and kazoo but she didn't seem interested.

Gee Kathy, at least JA didn't deny the facts were facts. Now you think the Boston Globe is printing lies? Or you just don't want to be faced with the ugliness put forth by many famous and outspoken persons (political, media, and entertainment)on you side?

I think it speaks volumes that neither you nor JA would not distance yourselves from people on your side who say these things. This after JA asked if anyone could show this stuff existed.

BTW, here is the letter to the editor of the LA Times published on June 5, 1999 where Heston responds to the story you refuse to believe happened.

Heston\'s response to Spike Lee

In a fit of pique at the Cannes Film Festival, Spike Lee said I should be shot "with a .44 Bulldog" (the handgun used by the serial killer Son of Sam).

In response, I feel some irony. In '63, when I was marching for the freedom of black Americans, I was threatened by white men. In '99, active now for the freedom of all Americans, I'm threatened by a black man.

When Lee was still in diapers, I was working with Dr. Martin Luther King to break down the racist code in the Hollywood technical unions that denied blacks any place behind the cameras, paving the way for young filmmakers like Lee.

I want no apology from him; my character speaks for itself. As for his, he's responsible for that, of course. I wish him well on his next film.


CHARLTON HESTON
Los Angeles

Do you respect Louis Farakhan, too, Kathy? Be careful how you answer, you may be falling into a trap.

In a fit of pique at the Cannes Film Festival, Spike Lee said I should be shot "with a .44 Bulldog" (the handgun used by the serial killer Son of Sam).

In response, I feel some irony. In '63, when I was marching for the freedom of black Americans, I was threatened by white men. In '99, active now for the freedom of all Americans, I'm threatened by a black man.

When Lee was still in diapers, I was working with Dr. Martin Luther King to break down the racist code in the Hollywood technical unions that denied blacks any place behind the cameras, paving the way for young filmmakers like Lee.

I want no apology from him; my character speaks for itself. As for his, he's responsible for that, of course. I wish him well on his next film.


CHARLTON HESTON
Los Angeles

Nothing but pure class.

Jbryan wrote:
I was, frankly, shocked by this characterization of Charlton Heston by kathyk. In fact, I should think that she would be only too happy to meet Mr. Heston in a dark alley or anywhere else for that matter. Especially given the choice of what might actually be found in a dark alley.

Yeah...... like.... Spike Lee.....

Or maybe...... Jim Crow.....

Known in liberal white polite society as James Crow.

kathyk ignorated: I stand by my original statement - naive or stupid. Most likely the latter.

The recruiters are still doing well down here, and as I understand it, doing well across the country. The Marines, as almost always, have fulfilled their quota, and actually were culling new recruits a bit.

But these kids are under no illusion what military service entails. There are many of their friends who have been deployed to Afhganistan, or Iraq, and they hear the stories.

Then they do what a lot of young adults do - they weigh their options, look at the benfits, consider the dangers, and decide on a course of action.

They do not do it blindly, or take such action lightly.

I don't even know why I bother, but, I have some coffee, I have a moment, I'll give it a shot. But, this is what I mean by the pigpile mentality. I bite by stating a view contrary to you righties, and you are all over me. It would be impossible to keep up with it unless one could devote themselves fulltime.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry:

Kathy, what do you actually know about Charleston Heston? Do you have reason to believe him to be a dangerous person? Do you have justifiable evidence that he is evil or something? Or is your distaste for the man purely based on your hatred of all things conservative, or anyone who believes we have a right to own a weapon?

Me: My distaste stems from a general dislike of the NRA and its ideals, yes, but that's certainly not all. I have brothers and nephews who love to hunt. I have no problem with that kind of gun ownership. It's the assault guns meant for killing humans that bother me. Okay. I will go no further with that point, because I'm not gonna convince you or vice versa.

As to Heston, I see him as an extremist in propagating this agenda of which I am very much opposed, summed up well by Jim Poyser.

"Soon after the Columbine massacre, the NRA held a rally, with Mr. Moses at its helm, smack in the broken heart of the community. Later, in Flint, Mich., where a 6-year-old girl was shot and killed by a 6-year-old boy, Heston and the NRA held another rally. The pattern is clear: Whenever any gun-delivered tragedy takes place, the NRA convenes the forces for gun rights. Don"t give the NRA members and their supporters time to ponder the victims and the implications. It"s one thing to have a belief system and an agenda, it"s arrogance to take your show into the epicenter of grief.
. . . During the recent sniper shootings in the D.C. area, Heston was back at it, challenging the liberals and the pacifists to pry a gun "from my cold dead hands." I saw little challenge in the media. No, they were once again letting Ben-Hur have his bully pulpit."

Larry: I had planned to go a little easy on you since you seem to not be able to handle anyone challenging your opinions.

Me: Larry, you are so wrong. I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall, repeatedly trying to drive this point home to you. It's not the challenge that bothers me, it's the nastiness. Stay civil and I will engage in discussion with you.

Larry: You are told that Spike Lee said that Heston should be murdered. Your response was to not only dismiss it, but to go on and tell us of your admiration of the man as a social commentator. . .

Me: I didn't know much about this particular Spike Lee comment, and after researching it a bit this AM, now I see why. It's quite old - 1999. Furthermore, I see how utterly out of context y'all have taken it (which is what I suspected.) Spike's explanation of why he wouldn't apologize for the comment. "I intended it as ironic, as a joke to show how violence begets more violence," Lee told reporters. "I told everyone there it was a joke. I said I did not want to read in the papers, 'Shoot Charlton Heston.'" And Heston's response, "He gave me a big laugh," the actor and NRA president said on Los Angeles' KABC-AM radio. "The statement is a foolish one, and it's not worth arguing about."

Me: I give him that. THe statement was a foolish one, and one which I dare say Lee regrettted. My God, look at the repurcussions! Five years later and you guys still won't let it go!

Larry: Let me tell you a little about Charlton Heston. . . . .

Me: I'm sure he's a lovely man in many respects. I detest his agenda.

Larry: Spike Lee on the other hand, has a long history of racist remarks, and has shown a consistent and deep seated hatred of white people.

Spike Lee has done a lot to try to lift disenfranchised black youth from the rut so many are in. He's not going to speak to them by doing Ozzie and Harriet films. Have you heard of or seen his film Jim Brown? I haven't, as I'm not much of a football fan, but it sounds pretty inspirational. A little blurb: "All American tells the story of one of the 20th-century’s greatest athletes. Starting with his early life and athletic accomplishments, the film continues with Brown’s post-football life, including his Hollywood career, where he established a new kind of African American hero."

He is an icon and postive image for young black men to emulate.He has funded a scholarship program for black college students. He has been a very outspoke critic of the negative messages in much of the rap music scene. Excert from an article highlighting a talk he recently made at Brown:

"I've always felt you can feel the progress of African Americans by listening to their music," Lee said. "Some of this 'gangsta rap' stuff, it's not doing anybody any good. This stuff is really dangerous." He said some Black adults equate education, good grammar and good grades with "being White," but when he was growing up, those things were seen as positive goals. "You were not ridiculed if you spoke correct English," he said. Lee urged the audience to make their voices heard by not buying or viewing anything that portrays Blacks in a negative way. "We buy all this stuff, not even thinking about what's behind it ... Think about the power that we have," the 46-year-old said. "We can't just sit back and think it doesn't affect us. We have to do something about it. We have to be more choosy about the types of stuff we support."

My son has seen him several times just walking in lower Manhattan - just another guy on the street. You have a right to your opinion, and hopefully you agree that I to mine. IMO, comparing Heston and Lee is like comparing apples and oranges, but in terms of a postive impact on society, I vote for Spike any day.

And Larry, if you haven't noticed, I've ignored your personal insults, although I must say, you're showing more self-restraint these days. Appreciate the effort.

Larry - I think she has a crush on you.

JBryan - I could have a set of bagpipes if I wanted them.

Gryphon - maybe I'll reinstall Music Match - but I don't know.... twenty bucks! I can listen to some MP3s. just not yours. I guess you are worth it. I know your taste in music is excellent.

Sorry to hijack the thread for personal responses.

Kathy - I think I found a MP3 I can hear. Will try again to day.

apple, there are dozens and dozens of free mp3 players, including Windows Media that comes with your operating system (if you use MS Windows). Apple's QuickTime is free and works with both Macintosh and MS Windows.

kathyk,

I detest the agenda of Charles Schumer or Sarah Brady or any of the rest of those who are anti-Second Amendment but I have no qualms about meeting any of them in a dark alley. Or coming to their aid if they found themselves in trouble. It is this sort of rhetoric that impedes our ability to take you seriously.

With respect to the Heston/Lee incident, all I can say is I have a big technicolor picture of the response had Charlton Heston said what Spike Lee said no matter if it was said "in irony". It is not a pretty picture and rightfully so. It is poisonous rhetoric and should be shunned by both sides. Of course Charlton Heston laughed it off because he is a class act. Unlike Mr. Lee who is given to making sensational (ironic?) comments for the publicity.

What is really amazing is how you all on the left repeatedly laugh off such poisonous rhetoric by your icons yet woe betide any Conservative that so much as says "boo" to any of you all. Being Conservative necessitates having a thick skin while being Liberal, it would seem, precludes it.

you know what happens Gryphon - I hear that warning chord - plomph! that sounds like a D major and it reminds me that I want to play the piano, so I leave the computer without doing what I was going to do. ...every time. I am totally addicted.

QUOTE]Originally posted by JBryan:
kathyk,

I detest the agenda of Charles Schumer or Sarah Brady or any of the rest of those who are anti-Second Amendment but I have no qualms about meeting any of them in a dark alley. Or coming to their aid if they found themselves in trouble. It is this sort of rhetoric that impedes our ability to take you seriously.

With respect to the Heston/Lee incident, all I can say is I have a big technicolor picture of the response had Charlton Heston said what Spike Lee said no matter if it was said "in irony". It is not a pretty picture and rightfully so. It is poisonous rhetoric and should be shunned by both sides. Of course Charlton Heston laughed it off because he is a class act. Unlike Mr. Lee who is given to making sensational (ironic?) comments for the publicity.

What is really amazing is how you all on the left repeatedly laugh off such poisonous rhetoric by your icons yet woe betide any Conservative that so much as says "boo" to any of you all. Being Conservative necessitates having a thick skin while being Liberal, it would seem, precludes it. [/QUOTE]


Gee, will they start taking me seriously with this avator?

JB, was I laughing the comment off? I think you need to re-read my response.

Did I say anthing about not helping anyone who is in distress? Show me where. I just find Heston and his ilk scary.

That's quite the verb, Jolly!

One of the deadliest weapons is a good deer rifle. Sounds good---the portrayal of Heston and the NRA arrogantly holding a protest rally in response to the deaths, or ignoring the tragedy---but that's not what happened. Here's the truth: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting, whose place and date had been fixed years in advance. The NRA actually canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) because of Columbine, which had only happened a few days before, except the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. Here's the public statement: "As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings. This decision has perplexed a few and inconvenienced thousands. As your president, I apologize for that." Another lie. Heston's speech was given at a "get out the vote" rally in Flint when elections rolled around eight months after the shooting. Heston gave his "cold dead hands" speech in North Carolina in May, 2000, and then reprised it in May, 2001 in Kansas City. It was a response to his being given a musket, a collector's piece, at that annual meeting. In the fall of 2002 prior to the election Heston spoke as part of the NRA's Vote Freedom First campaign in places like Manchester, NH and Joplin, MO, where he again reprised his famous picture of him with his musket. It had nothing to do with the sniper shootings and everything to do with the upcoming election. Yes, the pattern is clear, but it is not one you have written. You lie and deceive to make a point. You do not present one correct fact, ever any more, do you? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is the truth.

kathyk, you have had some fun here and made a good joke. However, the avatar was created by me for my use only and I'll thank you not to use it anymore. As for whether one can be taken seriously using it, you obviously don't understand the meaning it was meant to convey. I leave you to your own devices to figure it out.

What you said, kathyk, was that you would not want to meet Charlton Heston in a dark alley. You seem to want to dance all around that but that is what you said and you seem unwilling to back down from that position one inch.

Oh great, now I've been called a pig.