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#726975 - 01/06/04 12:54 PM "I Denounce It!!!"
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
In light of recent claims that the liberals NEVER condemn anything done or said by their ilk, or that conservatives NEVER condemn anything said or done by their ilk (isn't that a fun word to use?), I offer this thread as an opportunity for anyone to show how both sides can disagree with specific positions made by their own political brethren, whether members of this forum or national spokespeople or public figures, official or otherwise; or with the tactics used by them in particular instances.

But first, a few rules. Most importantly, any such denunciation must be complete and unqualified. For example, there shouldn't be any "Well of course the 9/11 hijackers were terrorists and did something wrong, BUT they had a valid point about..." (using an extreme example). There should be no qualifiers or justifications to your bellying up to the bar and speaking out against something said or done by a "compatriot," or similarly, in support of an adversary - either would qualify for inclusion in this thread. Second, if a denunciation of some act references to a member of our group, keep it to the point and as narrowscope as possible, without getting into an actual personal attack. Simply say, for example, "I think So-and-So was mistaken when s/he said blah, blah, blah...". Simple. Factual. To the point. Similarly, responses or rationalizations from any person who is mentioned in any disagreement will not be tolerated. If someone wants to argue aobut it privately, fine, but that's not the intent of this thread at all.

Since I believe that words have meaning, and they can't be "unspoken" after the fact, I don't want to have to delete this thread. But if it goes in the wrong direction and turns ugly, I reserve the right to pull the plug. And that would be a real shame.

So, come clean, people. Show everyone that you can occasionally agree with your opponent, and disagree with your compatriot. I'll start:

1. I denounce all personal, non policy related attacks on Hillary Clinton - or any other political figure for that matter. I further denounce any lewd photoshopped or animated images of her as tasteless, uncalled for, and counterporductive.

2. I think that my good friend Larry sometimes goes in for the kill in a debate with a bit too much generalization.

3. It is a very sad thing that longtime die-hard liberal columnist Mary McGrory suffered a stroke and is unable to continue writing. She was a talented writer, and I wish her the best in the remainder of her days.

4. I think that our new member Jack Frost is a class act.

5. I denounce anyone who claims that all liberals are unpatriotic or un-American.

Now, it's your turn...

Piano & Music Accessories
#726976 - 01/06/04 01:05 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14144
Loc: Louisiana
1. Most of Bush's current fiscal policy - simply can't stand it. Tax cuts are great, reform is great, but giving away money for nothing, is not needed.

2. Lewd pictures of Hillary. I've already spoken out against those - twice.

3. A lot of Ann Coulter's stuff. If you notice, I don't think I've ever used any of it.

Over 1.3M (and counting) posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

#726977 - 01/06/04 01:24 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Yeah, but she's hot.....

speaking in general terms, of course....... ;\) :p
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

#726978 - 01/06/04 01:31 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
apple* Offline

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Dwain: I don't believe the forumae and i still have the power to delete whole threads...I might be wrong. We still have the power to delete our own posts.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

#726979 - 01/06/04 01:49 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
apple, if that's true, it is all the more reason for people to take responsibility for what they say. Still, if things take a death spiral, I will ask Frank to delete the thread and hope he would comply.

#726980 - 01/06/04 02:13 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
1. I denounce all accusations of treason or lack of patriotism when there is a legitimate disagreement on politics.

2. I denounce most of the name-calling and "last-word-itis" that occurs whenever we feed the trolls. For that matter, I denounce feeding the trolls.

3. I denounce the tactic where individuals on this forum who legitimately disagree are taunted, called names, or told they are just "too stupid to get it." This transcends left or right.

4. I denounce the BCS. ;\)


#726981 - 01/06/04 04:10 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
1. I denounce the entire House of Representatives and the Senate as a gutless bunch of politicians more committed to re-election, than doing what’s best for the country.

2. I especially denounce any member of congress who gives in to arm-twisting/threats and changes his/her vote in return for favors, or “earmarks”.

3. Agreeing with Jolly, I renounce most of Bush’s economic policy as fiscally irresponsible.

4. I denounce anyone who resorts to vicious personal attacks on any poster.

5. I agree with conservative’s support of Bush’s initial attack on Afghanistan.

6. I denounce any “distasteful” ads, cartoons, in reference to any President, any Democratic candidate, or any political figures, while recognizing everyone’s second amendment rights.

7. I denounce Dwain's decision not to treat us all to a streaking! ;\)

#726982 - 01/06/04 05:19 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
  • I denounce all past, present and future denouncing.
  • I denounce all attempts to get people to stop acting like themselves.
  • I denounce any statements denouncing my denouncing of denouncing.
  • I denounce any statement that takes its author far too seriously, as I view the contributions here as enlightening, but view the Coffee Room as hardly a pulpit from which to convert heathens or call for the repentence of heretics. Arguments here are of little consequence to anyone other than those arguing.
  • I denounce all of the above. :p

Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

#726983 - 01/06/04 05:37 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3748
Loc: Chicago

I think you've (we've) gone off the trail a bit - if I understand things right.

I believe that folks were asked to demonstrate their ability to disagree with an issue related to their affiliation -- i.e. a conservative who speaks in favor of abortion rights or a liberal supporting tax reductions. Your agreeing with Jolly would thus be crossing the line if I understand things correctly.

Shantnik supports none of this -- so he may be exempt from participation.


#726984 - 01/06/04 07:25 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
If Dwain (didn't you like the Knock Knock joke, or was it just too old? \:\( ) is correct in his premise - that the liberals on PF stick together and rarely if ever disagree on political issues publicly, while the righties do it with gusto (excuse the paraphrasing), here's my rather novice, (having existed for less than half a year), observation.

We on the left have a very weak voice relative to the right, Not because we're less informed, intelligent or moral, but because the handful of regular, rightie posters are utterly dedicated and tenacious (and often very nasty) in duking out their views, insisting on getting the last word, and attempting to demean and humiliate those contrary (I know, I've said this all befor and I feel like a broken record, AND some of you ARE getting better, but I'm stating things as I see them).

I noticed just the other day that it seemed more liberals were speaking up. There is DEFINITELY, safety in numbers, and this phenomenon seemed to be at work. Many people are very, very timid about posting on public forums. I've only been involve in one other - my high school's - but, from that experience, I KNOW that that is the case. And, with a little stroking and a few posts without being reamed, some people are tempted to post more.

So, assuming my premise is right, I think the attitude among the few regular lefties posting here is solidarity. We had BETTER bolster each other, because without mutual support, we will all be run out of town.

#726985 - 01/06/04 09:27 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I don't like the word denounce, so pardon me while I use the word "question" instead.

Some of these might seem trivial, it's the principal involved that counts. I'm sure I've got more but they don't come to mind immediately.

I question those who want to abolish all forms of religious expression from the public scene. I do not question keeping religion and government strictly separated.

I question people, at all levels of society, who abuse "the government" for their personal benefit.

I question people who would use violence to achieve their goals.

I question people who are not able to accept compromise as necessary.

I question those who would sue McDonalds for their weight problems.

I question those who are unable to see nuance.

I question those who do not see that people, not guns, kill people. I do not question those who would like more gun control.

I question myself on a lot of issues.
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

#726986 - 01/06/04 10:32 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Originally posted by Bernard:
I question myself on a lot of issues. [/b]
Now that is something I can agree with and respect. We need more of that around here and in the USA.
"Make the pie higher." GWB

#726987 - 01/07/04 03:36 AM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Originally posted by Bernard:
I question myself on a lot of issues. [/b]
I do the same.


Seriously, I agree with most of the things you've stated.
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!

#726988 - 01/07/04 12:13 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I oppose people who kick puppies.
I'm dead-set against people who lie.
Same with people who cheat.
I like cotton candy and chocolate.


I think people have either misunderstood my point, or are deliberately avoiding it. I'm looking for people to publicly voice opposition to some concept that is generally recognized to be typical to your political leanings, liberal or conservative; or actions made by those of your same leaning. To date, only a scant few have replied in this manner. We seem to be getting a lot of denunciations of things that are generic, not identifiable as a liberal vs. conservative issue; statements opposing or favoring things that are universally desireable (kind of like a Miss America contestant hoping for world peace); or rationalizations of why some people don't call their compatriots on their missteps.

So, is there a position that is generally viewed to be that of your own political leaning that you disagree with? Are there actions or tactics made by someone whose overall political viewpoint you share, that you would challenge?

#726989 - 01/07/04 08:56 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:

So, is there a position that is generally viewed to be that of your own political leaning that you disagree with? Are there actions or tactics made by someone whose overall political viewpoint you share, that you would challenge? [/b]
OK, I'll bite.

I am opposed (won't say denounce -- it's a bit harsh) to the actions taken to stop protestors around abortion clinics, particularly the use of the RICO laws.

It is one thing to make sure the protestors do not harm anyone or damage property, it is quite another to pass laws, regulations and civil suits to keep them from exercising their constitutional rights.
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

#726990 - 01/07/04 09:32 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
So, is there a position that is generally viewed to be that of your own political leaning that you disagree with? Are there actions or tactics made by someone whose overall political viewpoint you share, that you would challenge? [/b]
I think I've already done more than my share. In fact reading over my last post in the relevant thread, I am reminded again that I have no general position. As I said elsewhere, I am actually an anarchist with fascist leanings who is regarded to the naked eye as a Liberal on this Forum merely by psychological averaging. \:D

But I do want to put myself courageously on record as standing strongly in favor of the Good, and being firmly opposed to the Bad.


P.S. Besides I still feel you owe me (and the Forum) a little fan-dance or something.
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

#726991 - 01/07/04 09:47 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
apple* Offline

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I'm going to back you up Ariel with your own quote....

I already told you I was a closet fascist, Jolly. And you and I both scored fairly close on that Authoritarian continuum of the Political Compass, as I recall .

But don't go blaming my demagogic bent on the Liberals around here among whom I merely masquerade, in contrast to the other Ilk! Ariel
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

#726992 - 01/08/04 12:57 PM Re: "I Denounce It!!!"
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6960
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Did I miss something while I was eating my way through Scottsdale?

\:\) Jodi


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