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Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721534
11/12/04 05:51 PM
11/12/04 05:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,484
Improviso Offline
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Ben,

Here's your quote.

I hate smoking. It is vile. I hold my breath when I walk by people smoking. It is a disgusting practice. The government needs to take a stand against the big tobacco companies, something shrub or any republican for that matter will never do, and start implementing a plan to eventually make smoking illegal.


Now based on what NY said, we can change it to something you can relate to.


I hate contemporary christian music. It is vile. I hold my breath when I walk by people listening to contemporary christian music. It is a disgusting practice. The government needs to take a stand against the contemporary christian music companies, something shrub or any republican for that matter will never do, and start implementing a plan to eventually make contemporary christian music illegal.

Or, how about this...

I hate basketball. It is vile. I hold my breath when I walk by people playing basketball. It is a disgusting game. The government needs to take a stand against the game of basketball, something shrub or any republican for that matter will never do, and start implementing a plan to eventually make basketball illegal.

So, while I respect your right to hate something or think it's vile, once the line is crossed to banning something, it opens the door for someone to ban things that you think are fine.

So, open the *ban* box carefully. Because once open, you can't close it again.

This is the same principle used for allowing the KKK to march and speak. We may not like what they say, and we may want to stop it from happening, but if we do, the box is open and it could be our free speech that comes under fire the next time.

Piano & Music Accessories
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721535
11/12/04 05:58 PM
11/12/04 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Okemos, MI
Can we ban rap? Surely that is even more vile than smoking.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721536
11/12/04 06:09 PM
11/12/04 06:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,484
Improviso Offline
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Improviso  Offline
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I used the 2 examples I did because these are things near and dear to ben's heart.

Ban RAP
Ban disco.. oh wait, disco's dead.
Ban the bomb.
Ban free love. (well, thats a bit too drastic)

Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721537
11/12/04 06:19 PM
11/12/04 06:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by ny1911:
I don't like smoking any more than you, but that is not enough reason for me to suggest that Renauda should not be allowed to ever smoke in my presence.
Actually Renauda is one of the rare smokers who, out of courtesy, normally does not smoke in the presence of non smokers. Out of choice, he does not smoke in his house and is known to park his truck on the side of the highway if the urge to smoke happens to get too strong as he dislikes the smell of cigarette smoke in any vehicle.


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721538
11/12/04 07:14 PM
11/12/04 07:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 841
Texas
Ben D. Offline
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Ben D.  Offline
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Texas
I don't care much for rap. You have a good point, Improv, but those things aren't harmful to people's health. Tobacco kills, and that is why it must be prohibited.


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721539
11/12/04 07:33 PM
11/12/04 07:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 841
Texas
Ben D. Offline
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Ben D.  Offline
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Posts: 841
Texas
Only one thing is near and dear to my heart - music. Let's not ban music.


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721540
11/12/04 07:44 PM
11/12/04 07:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,484
Improviso Offline
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Improviso  Offline
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Posts: 1,484
Quote
Originally posted by Ben D.:
Only one thing is near and dear to my heart - music. Let's not ban music.
"my favorite sport is basketball" - BenD

"keith green !!! he is like my favoritest music person !!! he was the first comtemporary christian music person ever so like all christian bands today would exist if it werent for him !!! that is kool that rite there" - BenD

Straight from the horses mouth

Let's just ban RAP music. OK?

Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721541
11/12/04 07:53 PM
11/12/04 07:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 841
Texas
Ben D. Offline
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Ben D.  Offline
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Posts: 841
Texas
For starters, I made that website last summer. Haven't been to it since. I'm surprised it's still up.

I'm not a huge sports fan - although basketball is my favorite sport, it isn't 'near and dear to my heart'.

Contemporary Christian music is great too - but it's not all there is. I love some of the old hymns and it (contemporary Christian music)isn't 'near and dear to my heart'. When I made that website, I was really into Keith Green's music. I haven't listened to any in a while. Maybe I will now. But his music isn't like the contemporary Christian music of today, what you're thinking of/

Music that is - "Bring Me To Life" by Evanescence (I love that song, but it's about the only one in the genre that I like), and most classical music (I've never liked Baroque music).

Ban rap? Fine by me...


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721542
11/12/04 07:56 PM
11/12/04 07:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 841
Texas
Ben D. Offline
500 Post Club Member
Ben D.  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 841
Texas
edit - wrong button


now a resident of TNCR - www.coffee-room.com
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721543
11/12/04 08:54 PM
11/12/04 08:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 200
Albany, OR
Ringer Offline
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Ringer  Offline
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Posts: 200
Albany, OR
One small point on tobacco taxation. I just love it how people love to throw on the taxes to make people stop smoking, but when tobacco use actually starts to decline, the politicians panic because the money well is running dry.

At least from what I've read so far, no one has come out anti-tobacco but pro-pot. That always drives me up the wall.

Finally, here's a little link to a guy that should have a permanent right to smoke anywhere in the US. (on the left side)

US Marine


"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said, `I drank what?'"

Ringer
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721544
11/12/04 09:27 PM
11/12/04 09:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,066
Renauda Offline
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Renauda  Offline
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Posts: 5,066
I agree with you about the Marine or any combat soldier.

Here is an example of how the anti-smoking lobby influenced the US postal service.

1) The original photograph from about 1937:

[Linked Image]

Behold the commemorative postage stamp issued 4 or 5 years ago based on the same photo:

[Linked Image]

A politically corrected postage stamp of one of the few photos in existence of Delta Blues giant Robert Johnson. cool


"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721545
11/13/04 05:06 AM
11/13/04 05:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
ny1911 Offline
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ny1911  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
Just about everything consumable kills if taken in the right dosage.

Why should alcohol be OK, but tobacco is banned?

What about swimming? Swimming is dangerous, fun to some and results in unnecessary deaths. Often, the innocent person trying to rescue the troubled swimmer drowns. If we outlawed swimming, that problem would virtually disappear.

Quote
Originally posted by Ben D.:
I don't care much for rap. You have a good point, Improv, but those things aren't harmful to people's health. Tobacco kills, and that is why it must be prohibited.


So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721546
11/13/04 11:35 AM
11/13/04 11:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
KlavierBauer Offline
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KlavierBauer  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
Ben,
As already stated, lots of things are hazardous to one's health. In fact, Life itself is a terminal illness. Elijah and Enoch are the only two I know of in all of human history to have survived it.

I understand that you see smoking as a health risk, and as a vile activity. But the health "risk" argument is faulty, because virtually anything is a health risk. That just leaves us with you not liking it, and that's hardly a reason to make something illegal.
I want less government control in my life, not more. I want to decide for myself what I want to do, I don't want the government telling me what to do. Aren't the people fighting for the banning of smoking the same people fighting for a woman's right to abort? ... now there's something that is ALWAY hazardous to the health of someone.

Ban rap music... You say no because it doesn't hurt people.
I think we can find evidence of gang violence and killings involving innocent people that were incited, or at least influenced by rap music.

If you don't want smoke in your restaurant, don't eat there. And certainly don't take your kids there if you don't want them around smoke.
It's a free market... so if others share your sentiments you will make a killing in your "smoke free" restaurant.

Take it out of public places, that's fine, but that does not include private places where the public is generally welcome (restaurants).
What's next, fast food? red meat?
at some point will all thought process and decision making be removed from our lives?
We'll just float along through life doing what our governments tells us to?

Anyone here see the movie "Equilibrium"?

Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721547
11/13/04 11:40 AM
11/13/04 11:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 265
Bristol, England
M
Moonbat Offline
Full Member
Moonbat  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 265
Bristol, England
Quote

I understand that you see smoking as a health risk, and as a vile activity. But the health "risk" argument is faulty, because virtually anything is a health risk. That just leaves us with you not liking it, and that's hardly a reason to make something illegal.
I want less government control in my life, not more. I want to decide for myself what I want to do, I don't want the government telling me what to do
How does one justify keeping say heroin illegal whilst arguing that smoking should not be band? (Or do you support legalising all drugs?)


Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721548
11/13/04 01:18 PM
11/13/04 01:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
ny1911 Offline
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ny1911  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
I haven't heard anyone make that suggestion...


So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721549
11/13/04 01:23 PM
11/13/04 01:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,402
U.K.
ycul Offline
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ycul  Offline
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Posts: 1,402
U.K.
KlavierBauer:
Quote
Anyone here see the movie "Equilibrium"?
Yep! Lots of inconsistancies, ott guns 'n fighting etc.
Just my kind of film in fact. laugh
Good plot - Christian Bale is always watchable even in a so so film. smile


How now, brown cow.
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721550
11/13/04 01:26 PM
11/13/04 01:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 704
Belgium
Nunatax Offline
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Nunatax  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 704
Belgium
Quote
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:

What's next, fast food? red meat?
I don't see the connection with smoking here. If you eat fast food or red meat, you don't really harm others, it's only your own health that you compromise.

What is the problem with having a smoking section and a non-smoking section in every restaurant? I want to be able to go to ANY restaurant without having to sit in someone else's cigarette smoke. You want to go to the same restaurant and smoke a cigarette after dinner? Fine, go sit in the smoking section. Everybody happy.


Some can tell you to go to heck in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721551
11/13/04 01:31 PM
11/13/04 01:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
ny1911 Offline
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ny1911  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,238
New York
We had the smoking and non-smoking sections and they were fine, IMO.

Again, we don't have ang strong evidence that 2nd hand smoke in the type of dose that you experience in a restaurant or bar causes damage to your health. I understand it may annoy some, but we don't want to get into banning annoying habits.

In NY, the ban was motivated by the annoyance factor and cloaked in some now de-bunked EPA reports.


So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721552
11/13/04 02:28 PM
11/13/04 02:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 704
Belgium
Nunatax Offline
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Nunatax  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 704
Belgium
Yes, I know, but KB said that if you don't want smoke in your restaurant, that you shouldn't eat there. That's where I disagreed with him.

I agree that it is ridiculous to fully ban smoking. Tolerance should come from both sides.


Some can tell you to go to heck in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan
Re: Should a public smoking ban be introduced? #721553
11/13/04 04:27 PM
11/13/04 04:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
KlavierBauer Offline
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KlavierBauer  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,773
Boulder, Colorado
nunatax:
I agree completely with you.

I don't have a problem with smoking sections... but there's still smoke, and people will still complain. That's how we got to where we are.

Restaurants aren't public property, they are private property. If the law currently states that smoking is legal in restaurants, then I as a business owner should be able to offer smoking wherever I want to in the restaurant. If the majority of people don't agree with me, then my restaurant won't be around for very long. And there's nothing preventing anyone from opening their own smoke free restaurant is there?
Why does the government need to mandate this?
If the WHOLE argument centers around risk to other people's health, how can you POSSIBLY argue for the banning of cigarettes BEFORE arguing for the banning of alcohol?

Forty-one percent of the persons who were killed in traffic crashes in 2002 died in alcohol-related crashes. Nine percent of the injured persons received their injuries in alcohol-related crashes.

Like I said, if the argument is about you not wanting to be around smoke, then I fully agree. But I don't agree that the government should be part of it at all. Restaurants should be able to have smoking sections, or not... that should be the choice of the owners.
If the argument becomes about secondary exposure and associated risks... then I think there are plenty of other things worthy of more immediate concern, like alcohol, uneducated drivers, cell phones, etc.

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