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Re: France
#710893 03/15/03 05:15 PM
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All this pious intoning that we need to respect people's right to live under backward, despotic, and corrupt regimes gives me heartburn. Of course, from some people's twisted point of view, that is an accurate description of the US. I have never been big on nation building but it seems to me that the conditions as they exist today in the Middle East are what breed the kinds of people that have become such a danger to us now. In the interest of our national security we need to do something about that.

As to the French, I have no interest in boycotting French products. Any quarrel I have with the French is with their government. Punishing French wine producers, for instance, does little to change their government. That is something they would have to do themselves if they even thought there was a need to.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
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Re: France
#710894 03/15/03 05:15 PM
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Forgot to comment on the California comments. Can't speak for the northern half of the state, but down here we got NAS North Island, MCAS Miramar, Camp Pendleton, March AFB, El Centro, 29 Palms, China Lake, Edwards, Marine Boot Camp, San Diego Naval Station, to name but a few. Then there's companies like Lockheed (Skunk works), Boeing (Phantom works or whatever they call it now), Raytheon, SAIC, Cubic, Loral, etc.... (I'm a little out of date on some of the names).

So be careful how you label Californians!

Drove over to Coronado last night. The docks of North Island were empty - there's usually 2 carriers tied up alongside at any given moment.

Re: France
#710895 03/15/03 05:18 PM
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So be careful how you label Californians!
OK OK OK. Sorry, I just like making those guys squirm. (And Lazy was a GREAT squirmer.)

TomK

Re: France
#710896 03/15/03 05:24 PM
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Lazy does not like to answer some questions directly.

His/her perogative, of course.


TNCR. Over 20 years. Over 2,000,000 posts. And a new site...

https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club

Where pianists and others talk about everything. And nothing.
Re: France
#710897 03/15/03 05:34 PM
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This may seem a naive question in a forum with so many post-ironic bitter cynics, but if the goal of this war is to free the Iraqi people, why did America pull out after Kuwaiti invasion instead of trying to topple Saddam then? Didn't Bush sr. want the same thing?

Peter

Re: France
#710898 03/15/03 05:40 PM
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It's a little known fact that Jacques Chirac has harbored a longstanding grudge that he tried out for, and didn't get, the part of the taunting French knight in "Monty Python & the Holy Grail."

"You empty-headed donkey food trough wipers! I wave my private parts in the general direction of your resolution. Now run away, or I shall veto you again!"

Hmm, I'm kind of glad they gave it to Cleese.

Re: France
#710899 03/15/03 05:47 PM
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This may seem a naive question in a forum with so many post-ironic bitter cynics, but if the goal of this war is to free the Iraqi people, why did America pull out after Kuwaiti invasion instead of trying to topple Saddam then? Didn't Bush sr. want the same thing?

Peter
Possibly. But the Saudis definitely did not and we seemed to be keenly attuned to their concerns at that time. Also, those in Bush Sr. Administration thought that Saddam Hussein had been so weakened by the Gulf War that he could not retain power for very long. They underestimated him. They also also hung all of the indigenous opposition out to dry resulting in the brutal reprisals carried out by Saddam against all who dared confront his regime. It was criminal in my view. An example of realpolitik taken to its ugliest and most cynical extreme. The Clinton Administration really did not inherit anything like a cohesive Iraq policy from Bush Sr. They had to sort of react in an ad hoc manner from day one.


Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness. :t:
Re: France
#710900 03/15/03 05:51 PM
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Posted by Jolly: Lazy does not like to answer some questions directly.

His/her perogative, of course.
A vague one indeed. Not too much to say on the Pramburger-Yamaha debates either.

Further, it seems we're getting a lot of "Yves from Luxemburgs" on the Piano forum lately.

"I have zee piano, yes. I play zee beautiful music, yes. AND NOW LET ME TELL YOU WHY YOUR PRESIDENT SUCKS!

Just something I've noticed. From my point of view--everybody welcome.

Re: France
#710901 03/15/03 06:05 PM
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I have only one thing to say to you, Mr. Lee:

Your mother is a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries!!!

Seriously, one of the great movies of all times. laugh


TNCR. Over 20 years. Over 2,000,000 posts. And a new site...

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Re: France
#710902 03/15/03 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by TomK:
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Posted by jgoo: [b]Along those lines, yes. I do not suppport the ideas of our current government. I do not support the ideas of Bush. I do not support going to war.
Geez, you sound like a 17 year old. jgoo, Lazy put all those words in you mouth. Nobody you minds you saying such things, but SAY THEM ON YOUR OWN.

And if I may further interject: jgoo, READ the posts you are responding to. Try to understand what people are saying before you write something in answer to them.

Listen, I own a 9 year old and I wouldn't let her get away with 1/2 the bad thinking you are getting away with.
TomK[/b]
But I don't support of those things. Also, what is it that I'm doing thats so wrong? Saying that I don't support the war???!!!

Another thing, I assume that by own you mean that you have a 9 year old child? You never ever own a person except for yourself. By saying that you do own her, it sounds like she is your slave or something. You could have said that you have a 9 year old and it wouldn't sound so offensive.

If you don't like what I have to say, then don't bother reading my posts. Thats all that I have to say about that. And I may be having to follow my own advice soon.


For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com
Re: France
#710903 03/15/03 07:33 PM
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Praetorian_AD:
This may seem a naive question in a forum with so many post-ironic bitter cynics, but if the goal of this war is to free the Iraqi people, why did America pull out after Kuwaiti invasion instead of trying to topple Saddam then? Didn't Bush sr. want the same thing?
Peter
The goal of this war is not to free the Iraqi people! That is certainly ONE of the elements of the equation, but not the primary one by any means.

We could not topple Saddam the first time around. It was never stated to be an objective, and remember: this was before 9/11 which changed the paradigm.

At the time, to go after Saddam would have meant that the U.S. said one thing to the world (via the U.N. and with coalition forces), and then did another. At the time, this would have convinced countries that we could not be trusted. In retrospect, yes, it would have been great to get rid of that human sludge while we were there, but I just don't think we could have without destroying our credibility. Should we have destroyed more of Saddam's forces? Yes, in my opinion. In a couple of days, we could have destroyed the equipment and fanatical troops of the Republican Guard (a very weak opinion on my part, not based on fact but more on recollection I guess). Our stated mission was to remove Iraq from Kuwait (i.e., to remove the potential of Saddam controlling the middle east oil): We did that, and no more.

However, your other point (I think you raised this point?) about allowing the Kurds to get slaughtered when Bush implied we would support an uprising. . . This is one of the reasons I did not vote for Bush Sr. (the other was his lack of even vocal support for Latvia when Soviet tanks surrounded their capital).

We are not going into Iraq to "liberate" the people. We hope this will be a consequence, but it is not the primary reason.

Re: France
#710904 03/15/03 07:38 PM
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Posted by jgoo: If you don't like what I have to say, then don't bother reading my posts. Thats all that I have to say about that. And I may be having to follow my own advice soon.
Funny, it seems like you are following your own advice and have stopped reading your own posts all ready.

I guess you don't think your posts make much sense either.

Re: France
#710905 03/15/03 11:47 PM
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[/QUOTE]1. But let us assume that this is what America is doing and that it is a good thing, can anyone tell me where this vision of this 21st century Iraq (or Middle East, if we look at the broader area) has been studied, debated, proposed, discussed, provided to the peoples of these countries for their aggreement -- or even explained to anyone at all?[/QUOTE]

Magazines, newspapers, talk radio, television. The debate rages in many venues.. There are many opinions and views. If you are against war no matter what, you will only read or hear that which supports your view.

For an example of this type of discussion why don't you start by reading IMPRIMIS Volume 31, Number 2 from which this quote is extracted.

"The enemies of free speech and tolerance - German Nazis, Italian fascists, Japanese militarists, Stalinist communists, or Islamic fundamentalists, - will always attack us for what we are, rather than what we have done, inasmuch as they must innately hate freedom and the liberality which is its twin. Only our moral response - not our status as a belligerent per se - determines whether our war is just and necessary". Victor Davis Hanson


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: France
#710906 03/16/03 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by apple:
[b]
1. But let us assume that this is what America is doing and that it is a good thing, can anyone tell me where this vision of this 21st century Iraq (or Middle East, if we look at the broader area) has been studied, debated, proposed, discussed, provided to the peoples of these countries for their aggreement -- or even explained to anyone at all?[/QUOTE]

Magazines, newspapers, talk radio, television. The debate rages in many venues.. There are many opinions and views. If you are against war no matter what, you will only read or hear that which supports your view.

For an example of this type of discussion why don't you start by reading IMPRIMIS Volume 31, Number 2 from which this quote is extracted.

"The enemies of free speech and tolerance - German Nazis, Italian fascists, Japanese militarists, Stalinist communists, or Islamic fundamentalists, - will always attack us for what we are, rather than what we have done, inasmuch as they must innately hate freedom and the liberality which is its twin. Only our moral response - not our status as a belligerent per se - determines whether our war is just and necessary". Victor Davis Hanson[/b][/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstand my comment, apple. It was said in an earlier post that we are going to war with Iraq to eliminate a feudal system throughout the Middle East and to move the region into the 21st century.

Obviously, a lot of people have said a lot of things about possible benefits of a war. But if this is the reason we are going to war, it must be a reason that the US Government has come up with since they are the ones who decide if and when the war starts. So, I am wondering where the United States Government has said this is what we are going to war for and where they have told us what this 21st century society is going to look like.

After all, if this is going to cost us the lives of our men and women as well as billions of dollars, I would assume Mr. Bush would explain all of this to us so we know what we are getting from all of this.


WMD = Words of Mass Distortion
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Avoid those who have found it.
Re: France
#710907 03/16/03 03:47 AM
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Lazy Pianist,

I'd bet that when you buy something with sequential assembly instructions, you sit and read them read them over and over, and are totally confused. . .

:rolleyes:

Re: France
#710908 03/16/03 09:23 AM
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Posted by Lazy: I would assume Mr. Bush would explain all of this to us so we know what we are getting from all of this.
The problem here is that President Bush does explain, but you choose not to believe him, which of course is your right--but he does explain.

There are a million reason to go to war and a million not to go to war. I presented the idea bring Iraq into the 21st century only because Elements of the Philosophy of Right is such a pivotal work in Socialist thought, but it's just one reason.

In the end though, it's a question of morality. The problem here is that in this post-post-modern world morality is fluid and without a standard of the absolute that we all can agree on there is a lot of room for personal choice, so to speak, on what we judge to be the higher good.

So, if you posit excluding the extremists on both sides: those who believe the United States is going to war for oil, and those who believe the pacifists are cowards, and further posit that there are men of good faith on both sides of the issue weighing in their conscience what is right or wrong, it comes down the question of what is the higher moral good for each person, war or no war.

And then we decide--as a democracy. And it's pretty clear that in America the current tide is for the war--though the contrarians are strong and vocal.

Further, it's not for the world to decide. It's our decision as a sovereign nation to do what is best in our self interest. Other nations may join us, oppose us--even fight us, if they think that is what they should do--but in the end it's our responsibility.

The war could be stopped in a moment if the people of America decide to stop it. I don't think they will.

Personally, I think war is the better option.

Re: France
#710909 03/16/03 11:58 AM
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Tom, that was an excellent post.

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