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#702976 - 10/27/08 11:15 PM Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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jscomposer Offline
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The Boogie Down
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.

On a real piano, you can get a sostenuto effect without the sostenuto pedal. And on a select few digital pianos, you can accomplish this. It works like this:

Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. A few digital pianos get it right, including my ol' faithful Yamaha P80, the P120, and the PF1000. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.

Now, you might ask, "What's the point? Just use the sostenuto pedal!" Well, mine doesn't have one, and I don't feel like spending money on a keyboard that has all sorts of bells and whistles I don't need, and that still fails on this feature. Plus, this technique is more flexible than using the sostenuto pedal. (Though I do wish my P80 had a sostenuto function, because I could use that as well! frown )

Try it on yours and let me know what happens! wink

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#702977 - 10/28/08 02:24 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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AnthonyB Offline
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Yeah, that is pretty interesting. The note does not sustain on my Roland fp-7 either. But, I do have a sostenuto pedal jack if required.


My FP-7 is simply remembering the last bit of "volume" information for the key I pressed though. When I press loud, then soft then release the sustain the loud note loses sustain while the newer "lower" volume continues on sustaining. The piano basically has no concept of dampers on a particular key.

I'll post an example of how I think my Roland FP-7 is generating the sound internally:


sustain=true
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 127 #first hit
C1.pressed = false #It could be from here that the sustaining is passed off to another part of the DP's programming.
C1.pressed = true
C1.velocity = 1 #second hit
sustain=false

The C1 note now sustains using the last known velocity, which obviously is quite silent. smile

From what my piano does this is pretty much how I imagine that it is "thinking".

For all I now this may be due to processing limitations in the piano or maybe even due to the way the pianos try to handle limited polyphony available. I really have no idea how the digital pianos are programmed something like the above scenario fits results that I get from my piano.


Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1
[Linked Image]
#702978 - 10/28/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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I noticed that too on my Kawai CA51.

#702979 - 10/30/08 12:30 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Score one for my GEM RP800 - the note sustains after the pedal is released.

But given that this technique requires skill and timing, both of which I lack, I'll just use the sostenuto pedal.

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#702980 - 10/30/08 12:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Copilot Offline
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Quote
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened.
jscomposer, i am happy to announce that my YAMAHA CLP-240 does it right:
The notes still sustain in this test!

So i suppose the whole CLP-2xx and CLP-3xx series have it right to.

I am curious about the ROLAND HP-20x series.

Can somebody do a test?

wink


I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.
#702981 - 10/30/08 03:18 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Berlin
my HP-203 failed the test.

So did Galaxy II Steinway so far, though I haven't fiddled with all options yet.


aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.
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#702982 - 10/30/08 03:23 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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jscomposer Offline
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The Boogie Down
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800?

#702983 - 10/30/08 06:24 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Michiyo-Fir Offline
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my yamaha CP300 failed the test haha. I guess that part isn't modified since the CP250.


Yamaha C3, Yamaha Avant Grand N1 (sold), Steingraeber 170 (family's)
#702984 - 10/31/08 01:13 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Dave Ferris Offline
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I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
Yamaha CP4, CP5
#702985 - 10/31/08 06:10 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Casio AP-45 passed.

Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?


Baldwin M
Casio PX-330
Casio AP-45
#702986 - 10/31/08 08:25 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it smile

#702987 - 10/31/08 09:56 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Triryche Offline
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My Yamaha s90es failed the test with the default set-up.

I am wonder if some deep editing will correct this.
When I have time I will ask Yamaha tech support.

#702988 - 10/31/08 11:39 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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jscomposer Offline
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The Boogie Down
Quote
Originally posted by Dave Ferris:
I enjoyed your writing and playing on both pieces Joshua.
Thanks!
Quote
Originally posted by jrcallan:
Does this test apply to models like this that do have sostenuto?
Sure. A DP that has a sostenuto pedal AND can get this mechanism right is ideal! thumb

#702989 - 10/31/08 12:15 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Copilot Offline
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Quote
My CLP330 failed. Which seems kinda odd if the 240 got it right. Not that it matters much to me though, will never have any use for it
Very strange indeed!

I did the test again several times with my CLP-240 and it's perfect: the notes of the chord sustain as long as they should do if the sustain pedal was pressed.

And if i slowly press 1 note of the chord again (also without making a new sound of course) that note only sustains like it should do with the sustain pedal.

It works also perfectly with the middle pedal or "sostenuto" pedal.

Why should Yamaha has changed that? Or maybe something has changed in the CLP-3xx software?

Any one with a CLP-340/370/380 and also a 270/280 ?


I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.
#702990 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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ere Offline
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I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it...


My gear: Roland FP4 digi-piano, M-audio A192 sound card , Sennheiser HD580 phones , Synthogy Ivory+ Italian Grand , soft-piano Pianoteq (highly recommended)
#702991 - 10/31/08 12:45 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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MA Offline
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My CLP-270 failed the test! I will go to the store and try the 240 if they still have one.

#702992 - 10/31/08 01:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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jscomposer Offline
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The Boogie Down
Quote
Originally posted by ere:
I was told that soft-piano pianoteq passed it...
wink :p

Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think. :rolleyes: )

My Yamaha P80 doesn't have sympathetic resonance and it passes this test, so that's a check. Can you guys verify this on yours? And what about the other makes we've covered, like Casio, Kawai, etc.?

(To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance.)

#702993 - 10/31/08 02:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Well, my clp-340... passed the test smile

#702994 - 10/31/08 02:14 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Michiyo-Fir Offline
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I guess that makes sense since I just tested my CP300 again and it has sympathetic resonance and it doesn't have that sostenuto thing right.


Yamaha C3, Yamaha Avant Grand N1 (sold), Steingraeber 170 (family's)
#702995 - 10/31/08 03:44 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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AnthonyB Offline
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Yeah, the FP-7 also does sympathetic resonance as well as fails the test.


Roland FP-7 / Pianoteq 4.5.1
[Linked Image]
#702996 - 10/31/08 06:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Copilot Offline
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Quote
Update: Yamaha tech says that DP's with sympathetic resonance will not get this mechanism right. But earlier DP's without sympathetic resonance will get it right. (Not that they shouldn't be able to get it right with sympathetic resonance. Or one would think.
Sympathetic Resonance is another term for String Resonance.

Quote
To test sympathetic resonance, press down a chord slowly enough not to produce any sound. While still holding it, play any other note staccato. The notes you're holding down will generate a faint sound if your DP has sympathetic resonance. If all you hear is the staccato note, then your DP doesn't have sympathetic resonance
You can listen to this: HERE.

So in the CLP-2xx series only the 270 and 280 have this feature and in the new CLP-3xx series only the 380.
The CP-300 has it too.

For the Roland HP-2xx: 203, 204 and 207 have String Resonance. So has the FP-7.

For Kawai CA series: CA-51, 71, 91 all have String Resonance.

I read here that the Kawai CA-51, Roland HP-203, Yamaha CLP-280 all failed the test, which follows the quote of the Yamaha technicians.

But in this case Eronaile's CLP-330 should have passed since it has no String resonance?

Beside this, it's very strange that all the high end digitals with String resonance fail this "reality test"!
I mean, just like Jscomposer suggests, i think it can't be that difficult to make the software let just cut the String Resonance samples/sounds so that the note you pressed again still sustains, but minus the String Resonance samples/sounds of the other notes (those you do not press anymore) because they are now dampened.

The extra Stereo Sustain Samples (a feature of the Yamaha CLP-340,370,380 and 240,270,280 when you press the Sustain pedal, also called Damper pedal) are nicely cut off when you release the right pedal again, so it must be possible to let the software cut off the extra String Resonance samples at the moment they are no longer needed.

( 'Stereo Sustain Samples' is a Yamaha term, Roland calls it 'Damper Samples' in it's HP-201 to 207 series. )


Any clever technicians there to explain what's the problem to get this right?

wink


I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.
#702997 - 10/31/08 10:38 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Quote
Originally posted by jscomposer:
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right. But a number of Yamahas get it. A few Casios get it too. LOL It's kinda strange which Yamahas get it and which ones don't. Like the P80, P120, P140 get it, but the P250 didn't get it (at least the ones I've tried).

I'm a little surprised the GEM RP800 got it! I tried one of their Promegas and it failed this test. I also tried one of their cabinet pianos, it was either an RP700 or RP800, I wish I could remember which. But it didn't get this right. So that's interesting that yours does. I'll have to find a dealer and test them out again. I really like their sounds.

Anyone here have a GEM pRP700 or pRP800 they could try this on? Those are the models I'm most interested in, and I hear that they have a different action than their cabinet counterparts. So there may be hope!

Although, I wonder if it has anything to do with settings. Hey curious14, what are the settings on your RP800?
Just tested it on my RP700. It did not pass this test, though it does have sympathetic resonance, and a sostenuto.

When I get back to the shop on Monday, I'll check out the pRP 800 we have. I wonder if it makes a difference if one has the optional 3-pedals, vs the standard footswitch sustain pedal that they come standard with.

I have noticed the actions on the pRP 700 and 800's feel much better than the 'console' RP700. The action on the console RP800 though is good though.


Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
www.rivervalleypiano.com
#702998 - 11/01/08 03:09 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Fascinating thread. I never noticed this flaw on my HP-207, but there's no excuse for Roland not getting it right. We'll see if they do in their next model line..

#702999 - 11/01/08 06:35 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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My CLP-380 passed the test.

#703000 - 11/01/08 07:06 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Casio AP-45 does not have string resonance, using the test described, but does pass the sostenuto test. Sounds like the theory is a good one.


Baldwin M
Casio PX-330
Casio AP-45
#703001 - 11/01/08 11:22 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.


Yamaha C3, Yamaha Avant Grand N1 (sold), Steingraeber 170 (family's)
#703002 - 11/01/08 08:01 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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My "old" CLP-115 passed the sostenuto test...

#703003 - 11/02/08 04:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Copilot Offline
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Quote
I went to the store and checked a few. The CLP 240 works, CLP380 works. Actually I tried 4 or 5 of the Clarinovas and they all worked. I just can't remember the model number for them.
The CLP-380 has String Resonance AND passed the 'sostenuto test' three times in this thread!

It looks like Yamaha found a way to get it right in the CLP-380 to.

So there's no reason why it schouldn't work with the CLP-320, 330, 340 and 370.

Eronaile can you do the test again, because your CLP-330 should have passed following the theory, since it has no String Resonance?

wink


I love my dark rosewood Yamaha CLP-240. She's as honest with me as a loyal dog but she sounds better.
#703004 - 11/02/08 08:31 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Well, I'm 100 % certain that it doesn't pass, if I had a cam I could record it wink

Just to be certain: I press the pedal, strike a key, let the key go, strike it again real slow so the note doesn't sound a second time, then depress the pedal while holding the key. Result, the sound stops when I let go of the pedal, while the key is still pressed.

#703005 - 11/02/08 06:49 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong.  
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Just tried it on my ancient Yamaha, the long discontinued P500.

Passed with no problem.


gotta go practice
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