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Hello,

I'm opening this new thread to try to clarify the differences between the top of the range Yamaha keyboards. If anybody have more information, pls add, even about other makers.

As this topic started off-topic in another thread I will reply to bachmaniac last post.

He was refering to GH3 vs Natural Wood Keyboard. As far as I know and Yamaha has published, GH3 is in CVP303, CVP305, CVP307, CLP230, CLP240, CLP270 and Natural Wood Keyboard is in CVP309, CLP280 and some other grand like models.

My source is music.yamaha.com
The GH3 inside CVPs and CLPs is the same, so what is valid for CVP307 I think is valid for any digital piano with GH3.

Well, according to http://music.yamaha.com/products/specifications.html?productId=816 it has a "Natural Wood Keyboard" and not GH3.

I played a CVP305 (GH3 just like in CLP270) side by side with a CLP280 (Natural Wood Keyboard) and they clearly are not the same.

I must also say that I didn't feel differences in action between black and white keys. I didn't expressly look for them, so maybe they are there, but should be pretty small. What I think (only speculating here) is that the physical mechanism in this keyboards is different from GH3 even for the black keys and although only white keys are made of wood..

Also I was told by this same technician that GH3 keys will wear in about 3-4 years if used a lot (3-4 hours per day).

So that all I know at the moment. But will appreciate any info about it.

I'm seriously looking at the differences because I'm thinking in swapping my CVP305 for a CLP280 or a Kawai CA9 (or CA91) although thinking about it maybe it's better to keep my cvp305, save a little more and buy a real piano

Bye

Carlos

Thanks Carlos for all the hard work you put into starting this thread properly.

1° I am convinced Yamaha is just fooling around with the terminology here, and fooling us in the process. When they start imbedding wood inlays into their white keys, they simply stop calling the keyboard "GH3" and start calling it "Natural Wood" instead. That is in no way the kind of "natural keyboard" they used to offer on their CLP990 a few years ago. It is still a GH3 whatever else they call it for marketing purposes. My dealer has working models of those keys on his counter, and it's obvious what little difference the filling of the white ones with wood makes. From what I have come to understand about how Yamaha's marketing works, they might just as well have glued paper-thin wood veneer to both sides of each white key and called it a "natural wood" keyboard also.

2° It's not a good idea to compare their two keyboards by trying the CVP305 and the CLP280 side-by-side, because there are other confusing variables that will blurr the comparison. I remember comparing the grand piano on the CVP307 to that of the CLP270, and they subjectively seemed like worlds apart to me. Hence my reluctance in saying the physical keyboards are the same in both instruments. To compare Yam's keyboards, either play CVP307/309 side-by-side, or CLP270/280 side-by-side, using the same settings. Afterwards turn off all 4 pianos and play all 4 keyboards silently. It will be very revealing, IMHO.

3° Do a search on this forum for threads about the 280's action. I remember seeing pictures here that clearly showed that the differences between GH3 and "Natural Keyboard" were ridiculously cosmetic. It's a placebo, and yet I couldn't swear that I'm not tempted to prefer the 280's keys myself, much to my shame...

I really hate to again sound like a Kawai horn-tooter, but I have no other choice than to say that if you want a wooden keyboard remotely similar to that of an acoustic piano, there is (sadly for some) no other choice at the moment than AWA Pro and AWA Pro Grand II action, with one-piece, all-spruce levers...

Regards,
Claude

p.s. Found this page (sorry if it's in French) on which you can take a close look at both versions of the GH3 action and realize that they're actually the same, whatever BS they're giving us about the "revolutionary technology" of the Natural Wood Keyboard... It remains "revolutionary cosmetology" IMHO

http://music.yamaha.com/products/highlights/keyboardsAST/8.html;jsessionid=82620B1895DE72C6B6C49B...

'Also I was told by this same technician that GH3 keys will wear in about 3-4 years if used a lot (3-4 hours per day).'

Oh dont tell me that now.... you got me worried now. Why would the NW2 last any longer?

Oh and I will be playing about 3-4 hours a day, should I be worried then? what do you mean by wear anyway?

You are dead right mwf, it wouldn't. They will BOTH last forever. Even though my utmost preference isn't with Yamaha, they build DPs that are FAR, FAR more durable than that. In fact they're built like tanks and you'll NEVER wear out the keyboard mechanisms any more than you will the plastic tops of the keys...

C.

I think I am right, but what would I know compared to a real Yamaha DP technician, if he/she says that they will wear in 3-4 years then I am slightly concerned, and I hope its not the norm for this to happen. I know after around 4 years on my Roland it began to mess up a bit, because of heavy play over the years, and I kind of hope that the CLP270 may be a tad more durable. I dont understand what he/she means about wearing, perhaps they mean some of the keys start to loose the touch sensitivity like my Roland DP did after around 4 years playing. But if you say they are built like tanks I may get away with heavy play on my new DP.

I also dont think thats a very wise, and too honest if true, aspect to say to someone wanting to buy a DP from a company such as Yamaha. Infact I would be annoyed with them if they hid something like that and only mentioned it to try to you to spend more money for a higher-more durable perhaps model.

mwf,

In any case, what you got was one opinion from one (certified or so-called?) Yamaha technician (not engineer, not long-time user either, perhaps?). That is a very modest data corpus to found conclusions on...

On this forum, every day, hundreds if not thousands of Clavinova users meet, and their experience should tell us just how durable/perishable Clavinova keyboards are. From what I've read here, this is the very first mention I ever notice of one of these keyboards wearing out. Some people are still playing their 1980s boards everyday, kids in schools bang on them continuously, etc

How about a few Guinness-worthy Clavi users manifesting themselves and testifying here? Perhaps we should start a thread? Something like: "clavinova users: use your keyboards moderately". You'll surely see the reaction

Cheers
Claude

I have owned a CLP280 for almost 15 months. I held off the purchase until I had the opportunity to play the CLP270 and CLP280 side by side. I was sure that at my low skill level it wouldn't make much difference. I was shocked to discover I could play difficult passages much more readily on the CLP280 and I gladly paid the extra $$ and remain very satisfied with my purchase.

BTW I do not agree with Claude's suggestion to try to evaluate digital piano actions with the sound off. The whole experience depends on the sound and where that sound occurs during the travel of the action. You can't evaluate the sound and action in isolation.

heavens!

Did I EVER say piano actions should be evaluated with the sound off? I just meant that it can be ONE way of proving to yourself that two mechanisms are identical, as if you do so with the sound on you may be lured by the instrument's response to your key input into believing they are different. Sorry if that brought confusion into the debate.

And Phil, I'm genuinely glad you find that investing hundreds into a Yammy "Natural Wood" keyboard was worthwhile. I wish you had had a chance to get a real, all-wood keyboard included (as you do from Kawai when you choose a CA) and then found you'd had something to rave about. Enjoy your 280, it's a wonderful instrument.

You wanna compare GH3 vs NW, play a 270 and a 280 side-by-side as Phil did. Not a CVP and a CLP side-by-side, geeeez!

Best,
Claude

Guys, can we please stop bashing the other person's keyboard? I'm getting a little tired of hearing who made a dumb move this, or who didn't do that before purchasing. It doesn't help with the buyer's remorse.

Plus, shouldn't we be encouraging people to buy digital keyboards? ANY digital would help the cause. There are still people out there that think we don't have "real" pianos.

And anyway, this kind of thing brings back bad memories of High School. "Hey, you didn't buy my keyboard so get out of here."

*hides in a corner and cries*

Hello,

sorry for the delay. Didn't notice this thread had activity again.

He told me that past 3-4 years is very normal for one or two keys (the more used ones) to need replacement because of wearing. I don't know if wearing is an accurate translation. He used the word "desgaste" and "desajuste"(spanishs word).

Well, I myself own a CVP-305 and hope the technician is wrong.

In my humble opinion, plastic should last longer than wood because it is less sensible to humidity and temperature changes. But as my keyboard is only two years old I can't tell for sure.

I also have a 16 years old Yamaha SY-55 with plastic keys and they are as new (but it's true that it doesn't have had much use).

Either way, a key for GH3 costs about 13€ so I'm not very worried..

Bye

Carlos

oops, my cat stepped on my computer keyboard and caused me to double-post

I've compared the natural keys to the GH3 in a side by side comparison, and I prefer the natural. I would bet money that I could tell you which is which, blindfolded.

I'm going to be selling my CLP-175 (digital grand with natural keyboard). I really do not want to give it up, but I'm getting an acoustic grand and I don't have the space for both. I hope to eventually get a CLP-280 (which I do have room for), because the Clavinovas are great for silent practice, learning new passages, and recording, and I will really miss that capability.

Ok...so I am confused, when they say the keys are "natural wood", it means that they are not full wood blocks, only overlaid with wood?

In my opinion, when I tried wood keyboards vs. plastic (or whatever the other option is), I HIGHLY perferred the wood. It seemed more porous, like my fingers stuck to the keys much better, instead of sliding off easily. It felt like an acoustic.

Hey PianoMuse,

sincerely wish you great satisfaction with your new piano. I mean that, enjoy it.

I know you may feel confused, that is precisely the object of all this "Natural Keyboard" marketing. Please re-read my first post on this very thread up above and take a close look at the pictures in the link I've given there.

This is all totally subjective, and they'll make us believe anything! I am just like you, I tend to prefer the keyboard they call "Natural Wood", even though it's just cosmetic. I too feel a better contact knowing there is a bit of wood under my fingers as in a real piano. But you're right, these are only small wood inlays (AND inside the WHITE keys ONLY!!!), so how can they operate metamorphosis upon the GH3 action? Wood is comforting and inspiring. It surely exercises some discreet effect even in real. Market a beautiful, fake wood-burning fireplace that looks real and smells of real wood when it's lit, and you and I will feel the comfort. Very, very difficult to maintain cold, total objectiveness about this.

Regardless, you got yourself a great piano, so put these concerns behind you and feel good about it!

Best,
Claude

You should of seen the size of the message I just wrote to put on this post, and I have managed to screw it all up and loose the whole message, I am so annoyed :t: :t: :t:

What I said in summary was the GH3/NW2 actions are down to personal preference, the CLP280 model apparently enables the player to reach the highest level of performance/playability, but if thats the case so does the CLP270,(which I get tommorrow ) Because you cannot get more out of the sound/expression on the 280 just because it has plastic sandwich/wood filling keys. Its just a feel aspect, the weighting is a tad more sophisticated/authentic on the NW2, but the GH3 weighting/response is already exceptional and you can get just as much out of the CLP270 than you can the CLP280 regardless of the keyboard type.

One thing I did notice however is that when I tried the CVP309 in the shop the samples used sounded better than on the CLP270/280, the whole experience of playing was what I would call the pinnacle of the clavinova range, the CVP309 however was over 5000 pounds, so waaaayyy out of my budget, the sound of the piano voice IMO is superior to the top CLP models, I heard also that Yamaha put their best piano sample into the CVP307/309, as apposed to the CLP270/280, so thats interesting, because I was told the CLP270/280 has the best piano samples out of all the clavinova range, however I dissagree after playing the CVP309, it was that good. However I was also told the CVP309 sounded better because of the way the sound comes across to the player, better speaker system etc.. perhaps.

The internal piano sound in the CVP-309 isn't any better than the CLP-280. The digital grands just sound better (in my opinion) because of the speaker and cabinet configuration, and how the sound projects when the lid is up.