Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?

ok. i know at least SOME of you use more than one keyboard.

WHY?

I know about using more than one sound module - i only need the sounds outa my pc tho so that don't count. (Well, plus the piano sound w/out sequcr)

The main reason I see is that there still isn't a GOOD solid keyboard controller with beautiful weighted keys -and also- full synth controls like pressure, pitchbend, pedals and all the knob/slider/switch dodads (not to mention FULL 0-127 program change capability) that's still relatively compact and not outrageously expensive.

The Yamaha CP-33 seems pretty cool, except that it's got like ONLY 16 distinct program changes scattered all over the 0-127 range
And no keyboard pressure.
As do most weighted piano keyboards.

Soooooo, i figure the next best thing is
2 controller keyboards:
One with the beautifully weighted keys.
Another for all the other midi doodads.


So we come down to my main question:

If you (were me and) got a 2nd keyboard, would you pick the light keys to dabble with organ action capability?
Or would you get a 2nd weighted keyboard?

Seems to me that the light touch action could be handy for some quicker trilly techniques...
But i don't know enough about that yet so I thought I'd ask you guys n gals.

And is it really useful to have 2 keyboards?
Or should I just get a midi controller pad thingy without keyboard to supplement the weighted keys?

I'm a beginner player so may not use the full 2 keyboards for a while, but i plan on it SOME day
And I'd like to build my FINAL rig now
(while i've got the liquid cash)

Thanks in advance for any insight,

...Steve

I have a P80 for regular playing and add in an M-Audio Axiom controller for fancy stuff.

ok, ya gotta tell me more than that, please

which one of the Axioms?
They seem great for total sound tweakability.
I'd probably use the sliders and little pads.
And maybe a pedal or two if the piano controller didn't do that.

The P80 probably ain't got aftertouch like most of the nice weighted key controllers, right?
Which is probably better done with pedal anyway.


I guess my main question is what can i do on 2 keyboards that i can't on 1?

I can see it being a good way to get left and right hands on seperate tracks of your sequence.
It'd make splitting easy.

So what's this "fancy stuff" you speak of?


And thanks for pointing out the Axiom.
I'd been kinda turned off to M-Audio from their piano keyboards which didn't seem too hot.

...Steve

Ok. I've got it down now.

I want a Yamaha CP-33 for beautiful weighted keys and a nice piano sample (and hold and expr pedal)

plus the

EdiRol PCR-800 !!

Has anybody checked THAT thing out?
Sliders and pads and knobs and program changes and switches and a balance slider and another expr pedal and midi merge and a cool red LED display with ONLY 2 DIGITS - the way it SHOULD be (well, i forget exactly if it's 2 or 4 or what),
annnnnd...


...wait for it...


poly-aftertouch !!


Suhhhhh weeeeeeeeeeet !!

Time for the ole Ensoniq KS-32 and Kawaii KC-10 Spectra to hit the graveyard...

Can't wait till the kitchen project gets done and I can buy these babies n build the new workstation - it's gonna rock

...Steve

Ok, umm, sorry for goin' off like that


I haven't noticed many poly aftertouch (note pressure) sensitive keyboards around.

Can anybody name any of em?
I did a google search and only came up with the Yamaha DX1 or somethin...

Does anybody have any experience with note pressure?
Is it as cool as it seems like it'd be?
I've never seen one in real life...

Thanks mucho,

...Steve

No, the Edirol PCR M controllers don't have polyphonic or key aftertouch.

*** Go for the PCR M, which are a newer model than the PCR. They are highly programmable and the action more solid than similarly priced M-Audio and E-MU controllers, imho.

Not many controllers or synths have ever had polyAT. It's a part of the MIDI spec that seemed like a good idea, but not many have supported it in hardware.

Years ago some ground-breaking synths, like the Yammy GX-1 and CS-80, the Synclavier and a few vintage Ensoniqs did, but not many others.

One lead: check out the Alesis ION--it just might.

Also, look at the new higher end controllers--Novation, CME. They don't have key AT, but they are the best controllers for the money these days.

I especially like the new CME models, both the UF and VX. The UX is high-quality controller that has a great action and lots of controls. The VX has motorized sliders. Both have slots for their novel ASX card (not available yet, or a Firewire Audio interface). Innovative stuff!

I'm pretty sure it does have at least mono aftertouch.
EdiRol PCR-800
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865

They just added it or somethin. (as of when, i dunno)
And they mentioned the KEYS have been modified for aftertouch, so that's why i'm guessin poly-aftertouch. That 4 digit red led display is just too cool

I have to give em my email to check the manual
So i'm off to do that.

AND, of course, to read up on all those other synths you mentioned

Thanks for them thar tips! Just what I was lookin fer.

...Steve

yep - in the ole midi chart by aftertouch both key's and ch's have the good ole "O" !!

Okay, I checked out the rest that you mentioned, ipgrunt.

Alesis Ion:
no aftertouch unless mapped to pedal or wheel.
nice analog-ish sound creation engine tho.
not for me.

The Novation REMOTE 61 SL
Cool character displays by each slider n knob!
wierd pitchbender/mod combo
cool laptop-fingersliding mouse control.
But 600 for it vs. 350 for the
EdiRol PCR-800 still leaves me w/ the PCR-800.

The CME entries seem VERY powerful and may even have poly aftertouch. But they also look VERY expensive. I'm gonna have to pay thru the nose for the CP-33 so I think I'll stick with my original plan.

There's still the "wife justification" factor I gotta handle, ya know

But thanks for pointing those out !!

If i had money to blow, I'd definitely like to try out one of those CME synths.
Especially the 88 weighted key VX !

CME also seems to have a nice 3 pedal combo.
(all glued together in plastic to please the eyes).

Now to research racks some more and those pedals...

...Steve

Glad you found out.

The another big gun in the controller biz is Studiologic, and I'm not sure if Fatar is actually making controllers or just the actions.

Finally, another great controller I like (but alas, no polyAT), is the Korg Kontrol49. I'm thinking of getting the little MicroKontrol for my desk, which might prevent a backache from leaning back and forth from my keyboard to my computer during composition.

One more thing---there's a lot of knowledgeable folks over at the keyboard magazine forum.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/18/page/1

Hmm, the Studiologic VMK-88plus
http://fatar.com/Studiologic/Pages/VMK_88.htm

seems like the only fully weighted controller that'd do about all i want. And not kill the bank account...

But I doubt the action is as nice as a Yamaha CP-33.

Sooooooooo, still lookin like the cp33 and pcr800.

I don't know how long I'm gonna be able to stand not buyin these...

...Steve

It's difficult when you have the bug.

Aftertouch would seem weird to me on a weighted keyboard. I'm used to synth keyboards for synth sounds and control.

Currently, the only keyboard I have is a RD300SX so I'm getting used to playing strings/pad sounds on a weighted keyboard.

Steve,

The Edirol keyboards have CHANNEL, but not key aftertouch.

Open this brochure:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1972/pcr_300_500_800_brochure.pdf

and notice the fine print on the lower right. You'll have to zoom up to 200% or so (if your eyes are as old as mine), and read what it says for the PCR800

The link for the brochure is on this page:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865&ParentId=114

NoteAT, KeyAT, polyAT--they all mean the same thing, that each key sends key and pressure data in addition to note on/off and velocity event messages, while each note is held.

PolyAT is more expensive to implement because each key requires its own pressure transducer and preamp circuit. I just don't think that you'll find polyAT in an inexpensive controller, like the Edirol PCR series.

Hmmm,

Well, the keyboard -is- mighty cheap - $350

But their midi implementation chart (last couple pages of the manual linked below)

SAYS

that it has key aftertouch.
http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manuals/PCR-300_500_800_OM.pdf

I can actually read those midi implementation charts. But only because I've been a programmer for 15 years and have a looong history with midi.

(you may have to do some registering to see that pdf - i did)


And the brochure says
"..., while new aftertouch sensors allow the
keyboardist to play more expressively."

sensorS not sensor


I -sure- hope it does have note pressure !!

Gonna have to call round and see if anybody's got one...

I =really= like those red LEDs

...Steve

Ok.

(sorry to those of you getting sick of hearin' bout this)
I finally have PROOF:

Edirol’s PCR controllers provide a velocity-sensitive synth-action keyboard with a superb response and playing feel. There are 12 different velocity curves available, so you can adjust the playing response to perfectly suit your individual playing style. The keyboard also offers assignable aftertouch (either polyphonic or channel) with four different velocity settings.

i just got back from guitar center.
they got the cp-33 and can order the pcr-800.
(Man that cp-33 keyboard is niiice)

they say $1400 for the two.

think i'll come across a better price anywhere?

Oooooo - the GAS...

...Steve

Remember, price reductions occur while you wait!

They'll probably beat anyone else's price, and I like shopping locally--you've got to support the local store or there's nowhere to go and play the new keyboards when they do come out.

I've been afraid to go play the Motif XS, and now I'm afraid to go see the new Nord C1. I give Guitar Center a wide berth.

If they'll let you return the Edirol if it doesn't perform as promised, then you really can't lose.

Now, take a deep breath.

i hate waitin... but i don't think my wife's ready yet ((

Anyways, thanks for your advice, Mr. ipgrunt.

I do appreciate it !

...Steve

Argh !!
My dreams have been dashed...

Just got this from Roland's email support:
The PCR-x00 series features channel aftertouch, but not poly aftertouch. I\'m not aware of any keyboard controller out today that does, at least anywhere near the PCR-x00\'s price point. As I understand it, poly aftertouch is pretty expensive to implement.

Interestingly enough, the pads *do* send poly aftertouch.


But i think i'll still get it.

...Steve

Hey one point not really attacked here yet...what style of music are you wanting to play? Or better question style(s)? I have 2 boards with weighted keys. One digital piano, one full sized Alesis 8.2 synth. The action is lighter on my Alesis so my fingers fly on it where my piano is slower but more responsive. Depending on your musical taste, the action will be important in your ability to accomplish your musical goals.

I like scale runs in my keyboard and guitar music, so having a tool to accomplish this with speed was a needed must in my bag of tricks. Food for thought that I believed was applicable to you initial question. Ask what you want to play and let your fingers to the walking if possible prior to purchase. I have read some negative reviews on some of those inexpensive midi controllers mainly in regard to their action. To me, it is a waste of money if the board can't provide the basic "feel/action" needed unless you are solely comping chords, etc.

Good luck in your quest.

Do you really think you would use poly aftertouch? I've only used aftertouch for synth lead lines or pads. I both cases channel aftertouch was fine.

That's because separate sounds (instruments) can be assigned to each pad. It looks like a nice controller. I'm sure you'll love it.