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#680952 - 04/18/07 07:21 PM weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
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Stephen Hazel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
ok. i know at least SOME of you use more than one keyboard.

WHY?

I know about using more than one sound module - i only need the sounds outa my pc tho so that don't count. (Well, plus the piano sound w/out sequcr)

The main reason I see is that there still isn't a GOOD solid keyboard controller with beautiful weighted keys -and also- full synth controls like pressure, pitchbend, pedals and all the knob/slider/switch dodads (not to mention FULL 0-127 program change capability) that's still relatively compact and not outrageously expensive.

The Yamaha CP-33 seems pretty cool, except that it's got like ONLY 16 distinct program changes scattered all over the 0-127 range frown
And no keyboard pressure.
As do most weighted piano keyboards.

Soooooo, i figure the next best thing is
2 controller keyboards:
One with the beautifully weighted keys.
Another for all the other midi doodads.


So we come down to my main question:

If you (were me and) got a 2nd keyboard, would you pick the light keys to dabble with organ action capability?
Or would you get a 2nd weighted keyboard?

Seems to me that the light touch action could be handy for some quicker trilly techniques...
But i don't know enough about that yet so I thought I'd ask you guys n gals.

And is it really useful to have 2 keyboards?
Or should I just get a midi controller pad thingy without keyboard to supplement the weighted keys?

I'm a beginner player so may not use the full 2 keyboards for a while, but i plan on it SOME day smile
And I'd like to build my FINAL rig now laugh
(while i've got the liquid cash)

Thanks in advance for any insight,

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
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#680953 - 04/18/07 09:58 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
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Kreisler Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Iowa City, IA
I have a P80 for regular playing and add in an M-Audio Axiom controller for fancy stuff.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#680954 - 04/19/07 12:45 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
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Stephen Hazel Offline
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Stephen Hazel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
ok, ya gotta tell me more than that, please smile

which one of the Axioms?
They seem great for total sound tweakability.
I'd probably use the sliders and little pads.
And maybe a pedal or two if the piano controller didn't do that.

The P80 probably ain't got aftertouch like most of the nice weighted key controllers, right?
Which is probably better done with pedal anyway.


I guess my main question is what can i do on 2 keyboards that i can't on 1?

I can see it being a good way to get left and right hands on seperate tracks of your sequence.
It'd make splitting easy.

So what's this "fancy stuff" you speak of?


And thanks for pointing out the Axiom.
I'd been kinda turned off to M-Audio from their piano keyboards which didn't seem too hot.

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680955 - 04/19/07 06:11 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
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Stephen Hazel Offline
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Stephen Hazel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Ok. I've got it down now.

I want a Yamaha CP-33 for beautiful weighted keys and a nice piano sample (and hold and expr pedal)

plus the

EdiRol PCR-800 !!

Has anybody checked THAT thing out?
Sliders and pads and knobs and program changes and switches and a balance slider and another expr pedal and midi merge and a cool red LED display with ONLY 2 DIGITS - the way it SHOULD be (well, i forget exactly if it's 2 or 4 or what),
annnnnd...


...wait for it...


poly-aftertouch !!


Suhhhhh weeeeeeeeeeet !!

Time for the ole Ensoniq KS-32 and Kawaii KC-10 Spectra to hit the graveyard... frown

Can't wait till the kitchen project gets done and I can buy these babies n build the new workstation - it's gonna rock laugh

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
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#680956 - 04/19/07 11:00 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Ok, umm, sorry for goin' off like that frown


I haven't noticed many poly aftertouch (note pressure) sensitive keyboards around.

Can anybody name any of em?
I did a google search and only came up with the Yamaha DX1 or somethin...

Does anybody have any experience with note pressure?
Is it as cool as it seems like it'd be?
I've never seen one in real life...

Thanks mucho,

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680957 - 04/20/07 06:05 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
ipgrunt Offline
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ipgrunt  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
Western US
No, the Edirol PCR M controllers don't have polyphonic or key aftertouch.

*** Go for the PCR M, which are a newer model than the PCR. They are highly programmable and the action more solid than similarly priced M-Audio and E-MU controllers, imho.

Not many controllers or synths have ever had polyAT. It's a part of the MIDI spec that seemed like a good idea, but not many have supported it in hardware.

Years ago some ground-breaking synths, like the Yammy GX-1 and CS-80, the Synclavier and a few vintage Ensoniqs did, but not many others.

One lead: check out the Alesis ION--it just might.

Also, look at the new higher end controllers--Novation, CME. They don't have key AT, but they are the best controllers for the money these days.

I especially like the new CME models, both the UF and VX. The UX is high-quality controller that has a great action and lots of controls. The VX has motorized sliders. Both have slots for their novel ASX card (not available yet, or a Firewire Audio interface). Innovative stuff!


-- ipgrunt
Amateur pianist, Son of a Pro
#680958 - 04/20/07 08:08 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
I'm pretty sure it does have at least mono aftertouch.
EdiRol PCR-800
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865

They just added it or somethin. (as of when, i dunno)
And they mentioned the KEYS have been modified for aftertouch, so that's why i'm guessin poly-aftertouch. That 4 digit red led display is just too cool laugh

I have to give em my email to check the manual frown
So i'm off to do that.

AND, of course, to read up on all those other synths you mentioned laugh

Thanks for them thar tips! Just what I was lookin fer.

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680959 - 04/20/07 08:16 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
yep - in the ole midi chart by aftertouch both key's and ch's have the good ole "O" !!


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680960 - 04/21/07 01:40 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Okay, I checked out the rest that you mentioned, ipgrunt.

Alesis Ion:
no aftertouch unless mapped to pedal or wheel.
nice analog-ish sound creation engine tho.
not for me.

The Novation REMOTE 61 SL
Cool character displays by each slider n knob!
wierd pitchbender/mod combo smirk
cool laptop-fingersliding mouse control.
But 600 for it vs. 350 for the
EdiRol PCR-800 still leaves me w/ the PCR-800.

The CME entries seem VERY powerful and may even have poly aftertouch. But they also look VERY expensive. I'm gonna have to pay thru the nose for the CP-33 so I think I'll stick with my original plan.

There's still the "wife justification" factor I gotta handle, ya know smile

But thanks for pointing those out !!

If i had money to blow, I'd definitely like to try out one of those CME synths.
Especially the 88 weighted key VX !

CME also seems to have a nice 3 pedal combo.
(all glued together in plastic to please the eyes).

Now to research racks some more and those pedals...

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680961 - 04/21/07 06:40 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
ipgrunt Offline
Full Member
ipgrunt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
Western US
Glad you found out.

The another big gun in the controller biz is Studiologic, and I'm not sure if Fatar is actually making controllers or just the actions.

Finally, another great controller I like (but alas, no polyAT), is the Korg Kontrol49. I'm thinking of getting the little MicroKontrol for my desk, which might prevent a backache from leaning back and forth from my keyboard to my computer during composition.

One more thing---there's a lot of knowledgeable folks over at the keyboard magazine forum.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/18/page/1


-- ipgrunt
Amateur pianist, Son of a Pro
#680962 - 04/22/07 10:59 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Hmm, the Studiologic VMK-88plus
http://fatar.com/Studiologic/Pages/VMK_88.htm

seems like the only fully weighted controller that'd do about all i want. And not kill the bank account...

But I doubt the action is as nice as a Yamaha CP-33.

Sooooooooo, still lookin like the cp33 and pcr800.

I don't know how long I'm gonna be able to stand not buyin these... frown

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680963 - 04/22/07 11:05 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 192
Mike Warren Offline
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Mike Warren  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 192
Cairns Australia
Quote
Originally posted by Stephen Hazel:
I don't know how long I'm gonna be able to stand not buyin these... frown
It's difficult when you have the bug. smile

Aftertouch would seem weird to me on a weighted keyboard. I'm used to synth keyboards for synth sounds and control.

Currently, the only keyboard I have is a RD300SX so I'm getting used to playing strings/pad sounds on a weighted keyboard.


Digital Fake Book
Free Chord/Lyric Display Software for Windows.
http://mike-warren.net/digitalfakebook/
#680964 - 04/23/07 01:25 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
ipgrunt Offline
Full Member
ipgrunt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
Western US
Quote
Originally posted by Stephen Hazel:
I'm pretty sure it does have at least mono aftertouch.
EdiRol PCR-800
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865

They just added it or somethin. (as of when, i dunno)
And they mentioned the KEYS have been modified for aftertouch, so that's why i'm guessin poly-aftertouch. That 4 digit red led display is just too cool laugh

I have to give em my email to check the manual frown
So i'm off to do that.

AND, of course, to read up on all those other synths you mentioned laugh

Thanks for them thar tips! Just what I was lookin fer.

...Steve
Steve,

The Edirol keyboards have CHANNEL, but not key aftertouch.

Open this brochure:

http://www.rolandus.com/uploads/CMS/Downloads/1972/pcr_300_500_800_brochure.pdf

and notice the fine print on the lower right. You'll have to zoom up to 200% or so (if your eyes are as old as mine), and read what it says for the PCR800

The link for the brochure is on this page:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=865&ParentId=114

NoteAT, KeyAT, polyAT--they all mean the same thing, that each key sends key and pressure data in addition to note on/off and velocity event messages, while each note is held.

PolyAT is more expensive to implement because each key requires its own pressure transducer and preamp circuit. I just don't think that you'll find polyAT in an inexpensive controller, like the Edirol PCR series.


-- ipgrunt
Amateur pianist, Son of a Pro
#680965 - 04/23/07 05:51 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Hmmm,

Well, the keyboard -is- mighty cheap - $350 shocked

But their midi implementation chart (last couple pages of the manual linked below)

SAYS

that it has key aftertouch.
http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manuals/PCR-300_500_800_OM.pdf

I can actually read those midi implementation charts. But only because I've been a programmer for 15 years and have a looong history with midi.

(you may have to do some registering to see that pdf - i did)


And the brochure says
"..., while new aftertouch sensors allow the
keyboardist to play more expressively."

sensorS not sensor smile


I -sure- hope it does have note pressure !!

Gonna have to call round and see if anybody's got one...

I =really= like those red LEDs laugh

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680966 - 04/25/07 12:33 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Ok.

(sorry to those of you getting sick of hearin' bout this)
I finally have PROOF:

Edirol’s PCR controllers provide a velocity-sensitive synth-action keyboard with a superb response and playing feel. There are 12 different velocity curves available, so you can adjust the playing response to perfectly suit your individual playing style. The keyboard also offers assignable aftertouch (either polyphonic or channel) with four different velocity settings.

i just got back from guitar center.
they got the cp-33 and can order the pcr-800.
(Man that cp-33 keyboard is niiice)

they say $1400 for the two.

think i'll come across a better price anywhere?

Oooooo - the GAS...

...Steve laugh


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680967 - 04/25/07 02:57 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
ipgrunt Offline
Full Member
ipgrunt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 419
Western US
Remember, price reductions occur while you wait!

They'll probably beat anyone else's price, and I like shopping locally--you've got to support the local store or there's nowhere to go and play the new keyboards when they do come out.

I've been afraid to go play the Motif XS, and now I'm afraid to go see the new Nord C1. I give Guitar Center a wide berth.

If they'll let you return the Edirol if it doesn't perform as promised, then you really can't lose.

Now, take a deep breath.


-- ipgrunt
Amateur pianist, Son of a Pro
#680968 - 04/25/07 01:08 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
i hate waitin... but i don't think my wife's ready yet frown ((

Anyways, thanks for your advice, Mr. ipgrunt.

I do appreciate it !

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680969 - 04/25/07 08:30 PM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
500 Post Club Member
Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Argh !!
My dreams have been dashed... frown

Just got this from Roland's email support:
The PCR-x00 series features channel aftertouch, but not poly aftertouch. I\'m not aware of any keyboard controller out today that does, at least anywhere near the PCR-x00\'s price point. As I understand it, poly aftertouch is pretty expensive to implement.

Interestingly enough, the pads *do* send poly aftertouch.


But i think i'll still get it.

...Steve


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program
#680970 - 04/26/07 09:22 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 40
Rock4Bach Offline
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Rock4Bach  Offline
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Posts: 40
Birmingham, Alabama
Hey one point not really attacked here yet...what style of music are you wanting to play? Or better question style(s)? I have 2 boards with weighted keys. One digital piano, one full sized Alesis 8.2 synth. The action is lighter on my Alesis so my fingers fly on it where my piano is slower but more responsive. Depending on your musical taste, the action will be important in your ability to accomplish your musical goals.

I like scale runs in my keyboard and guitar music, so having a tool to accomplish this with speed was a needed must in my bag of tricks. Food for thought that I believed was applicable to you initial question. Ask what you want to play and let your fingers to the walking if possible prior to purchase. I have read some negative reviews on some of those inexpensive midi controllers mainly in regard to their action. To me, it is a waste of money if the board can't provide the basic "feel/action" needed unless you are solely comping chords, etc.

Good luck in your quest.


Music Is My Passion, The Lord Is My Life
#680971 - 04/26/07 09:33 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 192
Mike Warren Offline
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Mike Warren  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 192
Cairns Australia
Quote
Originally posted by Stephen Hazel:
The PCR-x00 series features channel aftertouch, but not poly aftertouch.
Do you really think you would use poly aftertouch? I've only used aftertouch for synth lead lines or pads. I both cases channel aftertouch was fine.

Quote

Interestingly enough, the pads *do* send poly aftertouch.
That's because separate sounds (instruments) can be assigned to each pad. It looks like a nice controller. I'm sure you'll love it.


Digital Fake Book
Free Chord/Lyric Display Software for Windows.
http://mike-warren.net/digitalfakebook/
#680972 - 04/26/07 11:49 AM Re: weighted and weighted? or weighted and light-touch?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Stephen Hazel Offline
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Stephen Hazel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
To Rock4Bock,
I'll just be playin' pop mostly. I like classical, but i'm still a beginner and wanna stick with stuff i can learn fast and get the basics down. So pop, some classic rock, blues, etc. I'm hoping the PCR-800 will let me do organ licks and such. but mostly to tweak synth sounds - change the filter cutoff / bring envelopes up and down / add lfo for pitch and volume mod / etc / etc - mostly via those nice sliders, maybe by the pads' aftertouch and we'll see if the knobs are worth using - i dunno. The keyboard is just to have a second one and i figure there must be SOMEthing to having lite keys because there are a ton of organ players and lite key synth players out there... But my daily practice will be entirely on the yamaha cp-33's beautiful weighted keyboard.


To Mike Warren,
I've never used poly aftertouch, but I'd sure like to try it out !!
(If anybody has who's readin' this, I'd love to hear about what it's like.)
I'm not even sure a soundfont patch can respond to poly aftertouch. But the computer programmer in me wants it smile


http://PianoCheetah.com - my weird piano practice program

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