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#679375 - 08/30/08 09:28 PM On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
This is my third week on the search for a digital piano. I currently have an eye on P140 and my other eye on YDP160 which I haven't tried yet. Today I went an authorized yamaha dealer store in the area. I have to say it's a bit intimidating. :p A self-taught newbie walking though all the shiny acoustic upright and grand pianos with a budget of 2,000 bucks in her (tiny) hands.

Anyway, they don't carry YDP series. But I had a chance to play CLP220, CLP230, CLP280 and also "touched" their uprights and grand pianos in the store. (There is a moment I wish I lived there.) I didn't try any CVP series though.

So here is what I think about CLP 2xx series.

CLP220 - I don't plan to buy this after reading a lot of posts here. :rolleyes: I am not a fan of its control panel. But the main issue is that I feel the keys are "very sticky" when I press and release them. I think I feel the same way with YDP140 as well.

CLP230 - (priced at $2,100) The key action is not as "sticky" as CLP220. I feel just okay with it. I actually want to try 240 but it was not there for some reasons. (priced at $2,700 That's like from 2 years ago! But they offer Ebony finish at the same price as other finishes.)

CLP280 - I shouldn't have tried it. The natural wood action is great. It's light and responds fairly quickly. I love it. It's almost similar to the acoustic ones I have tried. I didn't bother to ask about the price since I know it's well beyond my budget. (Can't they just make a cheaper digital with NW and one grand piano voice ?)

I have to admit that now I would love to own the acoustic one. whome (That's why I said "I'm almost spoiled." up there.) The echoing (sustaining?) sound just amazes me. But I live in a condo, love to have all the windows opened all the time and usually practice late at night. So it might not work out so well.

Back to reality....
My budget is about $1,000-$2,000. $2k is already a stretch. Don't want to break the bank or take 2nd mortgage just for a "paino!" eek (I wish I could take out from the retirement plan though. laugh )

I plan to check their other store if they have CLP240 on display. Just want to hear and feel it. The price is probably the same. frown I guess my final options are down to P140 and YDP160. (I haven't done as much research on other brands but did try a few.)

Here are a couple questions I have.

I wonder if the "key-off sample" and the "stereo sustain" really makes P140 sound different from YDP160. (Anyone notice ?)

Another question is about my "sticky" feeling toward the keys. Is that the same thing when people say it's heavy ? And does some acoustic pianos really feel like this ?

If there is anything you guys think I overlook, please let me know. Or I already thought too much ? (You can tell me to stop.)

Sorry it's a bit long. Thanks all in advance.

TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

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#679376 - 08/31/08 12:44 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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crusadar Offline
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Hi TinyHands, Bear in mind that the CLP 2xx series is being replaced by the CLP 3xx series, so there will probably be some heavy discounting on the former to make way for the new stock, that's what happened here in the UK.

I recently heard a CLP 240 being played by a concert pianist in a large auditorium and the sound was very impressive, but that's from a listeners view I'm not sure what it's like to play though, i.e. the touch.

#679377 - 08/31/08 07:21 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
Yeah, I know that they're being replaced. That's why I decided to try all of them now before there is nothing left. :p I hope there will be a big sale during Thanksgiving or Christmas.

I just can't believe this is the only one authorized Yamaha dealer in DC area.

Thanks for ensuring me that CLP240 sounds great. laugh

TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679378 - 08/31/08 08:08 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Hi,

Are you set on a Yamaha?
Since key feel is important to you, you might want to check the Kawai CAX1, they all have wooden keys (awa grand pro II).

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#679379 - 08/31/08 09:10 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
No, I am not totally set on Yamaha. I would say just 80%. :p But mainly just because I do most of my research on their product and my current keyboard/accessories are Yamaha. I guess I have to broaden my search (and research.) smile

Just happen that I plan to take a lesson soon so it would be nice to find a dp. If not, I just talk to the teacher to work this out.

Ugh...I shouldn't have touched those acoustic pianos. Really!

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check them out. smile

TinyHands
(*) ps. Look like price for CAx1 series is over my budget. I guess I should check CE200 ?

(*) added


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679380 - 08/31/08 12:14 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Strat Offline
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I was like you and thought only Yamaha could offer what I want, but after testing out other brands, I'm now in the process of ordering a Roland HP-207. Its touch is far superior to anything Yamaha has to offer (IMHO, of course).

Just offering my anecdote as evidence that there's more out there than just one brand. wink


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
#679381 - 08/31/08 12:34 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Hi TinyHands,
I don't think I have much to offer here. I have a P140 and I love it. I prefer playing it to my acoustic.
I thought the P140 had been discontinued though? Because I bought it a year ago and the person I bought it through (one of my teachers at school) said he thought I was getting a discount because it was about to be replaced with something else (possibly the other yamaha model you mentioned?).

I prefer my yamaha to any of the Rolands I've played (they were good upper range ones, but I can't tell you the model numbers) but it's just personal opinion. The teacher I bought it through thought I was mad to go for the yamaha over the Roland. The Roland was actualy meant to be far more expensive but he was getting a MASSIVE discount because he filled out a questionarre for Roland, though. I didn't like that the Roland didn't have inbuilt speakers.

I don't think I was much help there. But if you go for the yamaha - I don't think you'll be disappointed.
x

#679382 - 08/31/08 03:09 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Reston, Virginia
Hi Strat,
I've just learnt my lesson that there is other brands out there too. :p I don't even think I researched this much when I bought my car! Your HP-207 has a lot of features for the grand piano. smile

Hi PandO,
Really, thanks for sharing your experience. P140 is still my first choice at this moment. (I just need to try it again....I start forgetting how it feels.) I like its sound and don't care much about the speaker size.

I went to a different store today, planning to try Kawai CE200 and other CAx1 models however the rep said they got rid of Kawai. ( eek huh ?) I guess they haven't updated their website or informed Kawai. Now I have no idea where I can try CE200 because they're the only dealer on the list in this area.

So I am a bit disappointed. (And on top of that the rep didn't impress me that much.) The only model under $2k is Roland PT3100, priced at $1,899. I wasn't recognized the model when I was there. But after did a bit search when I got back, it looks like it's HP103 special edition. Overall it's just so so to me. I do prefer their key actions than "sticky" one from CLP lower model. But for some reasons it just doesn't click me. I don't think I would like to spend that much on it. Maybe I wasn't as happy as I was yesterday.

I'll keep trying and searching. smile Better go practice with my YPT now. Thanks all.

TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679383 - 08/31/08 03:29 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Gyro Offline
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An acoustic piano would be nice under ideal
conditions: big house, tons of money for
expert maintenance. But the realities
of owning an acoustic are sobering:
you'll need to get it tuned at least
twice a year, and tunings are about $150
each; you'll have to deal with tuners,
and some of these people are rude and/or
incompetent; acoustic pianos weigh a ton,
and you'll need movers just to get it
into, and out of, your house; acoustic pianos
can be heard a block away, and so they
are out of the question for an apt.,
condo, or townhouse; they need frequent
repair for things like stuck keys and
buzzing strings; the tuning pins are
held in place by friction only in a wood
pin block, and if they start to slip in
their holes it's big trouble.

The CLP-280 is very impressive, but you
pay for that, around $4000. You should
realize that you can get a good, new
dp for $600 to $900. Such a piano
will have grand piano-like sound and
action--not as smooth and sophisticated
as a CLP-280, but adequate for any kind of
piano playing. My current dp cost $900,
and my previous one was $700, and they've
both been satisfactory, and I've used them
to work on the most difficult classical
repertoire like concertos and so forth.

#679384 - 08/31/08 04:54 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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:throttle:

:strangle:


Will
#679385 - 08/31/08 06:47 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Kawai James Offline
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TinyHands, the CE200 is typically stocked by the larger music store chains such as Sam Ash and Musician's Friend.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#679386 - 09/01/08 10:29 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Slightly off topic here but -
Gyro,
I think I have buzzing strings. What would I expect to pay to get one repaired and would a piano tuner be able to do the job? I have an upright, not a grand btw.
Cheers. x

#679387 - 09/01/08 12:13 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Gyro Offline
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Gyro  Offline
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When I was a child taking lessons, I played
on an acoustic, and buzzing strings were a
common problem. I don't know exactly
how they were handled, since my parents
took care of stuff like that way back then. But
the same person who does the tuning would
probably handle such repairs, and since tunings
are about $150 each, I would guess that
repairs like this would be in approximately
the same price range.

#679388 - 09/01/08 04:11 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
I managed to find another store that carries Kawai CAx1. Unfortunately they don't have CE200 but since CAx1 use the same key action technology so I gave them a try anyway.

The model I tried was CA51. I really really like the feel and the action! (eek!) I prefer its front control panel than the side one on YDP (which I still haven't had a chance to try.) However I am not so excited by the sound. frown There are some I am okay with. They just don't give me the same impression I got when I first hear the Grand Piano sound (and other piano sound) from P140.

But since I am a beginner I don't trust the sound from the pieces I play that much. laugh So I went to PW ABF's recitals, listen to the pieces played on these two models. I have to say l still prefer P140 sound especially the high pitch range. Not many from CE200. (Where are you guys ? :p )

So I think I am going to digest all the information. Compare gives&takes. Try these two models again. You should see my post on "Digital "price paid" reports" thread in a couple weeks.

Thank you very much for all the advice and opinions. Any thoughts and suggestions are still welcome. I'll keep checking this post. Labor Day weekend is gone without much practice. (T_T) But I hope I have used it wisely. smile


TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679389 - 09/01/08 07:16 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Oxfords Gal Offline
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Hey tiny hands,

Not sure if you have a guitar center or sam ash in your area. They do carry yamahas, they don't carry the clavinovas or acoustic but they carry everything else.

I just did a little looking around. Looks like you have a wide variety for an hour and a half drive.

There's a Sam Ash 92 miles from you. You might want to take a look at their Inventory at samash.com. they also have a guitar center in richmond as well.

here's the samash page on digital pianos

http://www.samash.com/catalog/categ...p;departmentid=3&sourcetype=deptnav3


and here's guitar center

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Digital-Pianos-Keyboards.gc


Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.>>> Herman Munster
#679390 - 09/01/08 07:55 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
Wow Oxfords Gal. Thanks for spending time helping me!

I do have 2 Guitar Centers in the area. I went to both of them a couple weeks ago. However there is a big local music store giving me a better price on P140 which after tax it is gonna be similar to one on the internet. (So I'd better support the local store heh ? smile )

I did look at Sam Ash location on their website after jmbattle mentioned about CE200. Yeah it's about 100 miles from where I live. After driving around the town to visit several piano stores these 3 days I am sort of drained so I decide not to go that far. The local store I went to try CA51 is just about 20 miles away so I decided to go there instead.

I am listening to a piece from Recital#9 by TThomas (Tina) which is played w/ P140. I am in awe right now. It sounds amazing. If I could only play that well........

Maybe I should just go back to my pianica. hee hee. laugh

Thanks again. I do appreciate it.

TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679391 - 09/02/08 08:24 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Oxfords Gal Offline
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haha TH, glad you're almost there. No don't go back to the pianica, you're doing brilliantly. laugh

Quite a few people use software and use the voices on the software. For example one of our guys here on the forum uses software (I guess he attaches his keyboard to the computer) and uses a bosendorfer grand voice to record his. Not sure if it's the case with Tina, but that's something else to think about.


Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair.>>> Herman Munster
#679392 - 09/02/08 09:20 AM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Strat Offline
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That's what I do. I bought a YDP-635 originally & am using Synthogy Ivory. Though it sounds fantastic, it wasn't cheap : about $500 for the software alone.

The Roland HP-207 will have much better touch which will simulate a piano.

I'm thinking of purchasing Eats/West Quantum Leap Pianos, which is $450 and, if all the different piano models are installed, it takes 253 gigs! Yes, you read right! LOL!


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
#679393 - 09/02/08 02:27 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Eternal Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Strat:
That's what I do. I bought a YDP-635 originally & am using Synthogy Ivory. Though it sounds fantastic, it wasn't cheap : about $500 for the software alone.
Wow - you guys are getting screwed in Canada smile It's less than $300 in the US.

#679394 - 09/02/08 03:50 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Strat Offline
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A lot of companies don't allow the export of their products beyond the borders of whichever country is being provided said product.

So a US-distributed product can't be export to, say, Canada. Hopefully, that same rule doesn't apply to East/West, the makers of Quantum Leap Pianos, because I've been seriously itching to get myself a copy. Unfortunately, the cheapest I could find was $450 CDN. I doubt there's a better price in the US for it, considering the avertised price on their own website is $450 US.


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
#679395 - 09/02/08 07:53 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Eternal Offline
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Get the academic version - I remember doing it with other software. Sellers on eBay usually are very 'lenient' when checking your credentials, if they even check them at all. Saving $100 or more just for faxing in my college ID (that expired years ago) is sure worth it.

It's still the same features - but cheaper.

#679396 - 09/03/08 01:09 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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Hey Tinyhands, a bit late i know but if you're looking at the Yamaha P140 which is a stage piano, you might wanna check out other stage pianos. They tend to be cheaper simply because they lack speakers, a self supporting stand and of course not much attention is paid to the cost of making them a "part of the furniture" so to speak! The upside is that most of the stage pianos today contain advanced features and manufacturer patented technologies which make them sound pretty damn impressive. Stuff like damper physical modelling and natural string resonance etc. I won't bore you with the details but they make a difference. And don't forget-they're portable. I play a gem promega3 and although this is probably not what you're looking for and possibly out of your price range, many people including myself will stay true to the opinion that it's near impossible to find a better, more realistic piano sound from any other digital piano-including one's many times the price.

I understand that you're finding trouble locating dealers who stock anything other than Yamaha!! However, it's worth checking out Kawai as someone mentioned earlier. They do have actual wooden keys which makes them feel unlike any keyboard on the market. It gives the Kawai keyboards character-instead of a plastic feel, and allows you to "bounce" or double tap notes if you see what i mean. So if it's action you're after i doubt you'll find better. Check out the Kawai MP series. I have to say that the sound is a matter of opinion, it's fairly dull, more suited to classical in my opinion.

HOWEVER if your preference is for the sound rather than touch, then the GEM (GeneralMusic) promega range are by far the sure winners. Again i won't bore you with the verbal diarrhea, but they actually use synthesis as part of their tone generation as opposed to pure samples. This gives them what nearly all digital keyboards lack.....character, and allows them to come close if not surpass software in terms of tone reproduction! Some people will tell you that they sound crap, but that's the beauty of it!! As you play and listen intently you hear nuances that you should normally only hear from a real acoustic instrument, again purely because GEM use partial synthesis for tone generation. The promega's (promega3-£2000 and the promega2-£1500) have two piano sounds (as well as another 62 keyboard sounds). A steinway 9' which has a nice responsive fairly lively tone, whilst the other Fazioli 10' Grand sound is simply beautiful. Luscious, deep, heavy. I sound like a wine taster! Check out the spec on the promega series, trust me you won't be disappointed.

These keyboards have unfortunately been discontinued and you'll be hard pushed to find one second hand-they're rare and people don't wanna sell them! BUT BUT BUT, GEM have released cheaper versions without the gimmicks (like motorized faders, multiple fx, 320 note polyphony! etc etc) under the name PRP series. Namely the PRP700 and the PRP800-which has built in speakers. They're cheap, around £700 and £800 respectively, AND they use the EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY as the promega keyboards. And i don't mean a dumbed down version, the piano sounds are exactly the same. Furthermore they have revised the weighted action, which i have to say wasn't great on the promega. These should be available somewhere near you i hope, as they beat the rolands and yamaha's hands down. If you check out GEM's reputation, you'll agree.

The alternative's to the GEM's in my opinion would be the Kawai MP series, namely the MP8, but these are costly.

I hope i've been helpful and i do apologise for going on! But i spent months researching keyboards before i parted with my money, and trust me when i say that Yamaha's are the "Ford's" of the keyboard market...they're good BUT there's far more and far better out there that cannot be ignored.


Yamaha make good motorbikes, Roland are technofreaks, Korg look pro but sound CHEAP!
#679397 - 09/03/08 08:27 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
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TinyHands Offline
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Reston, Virginia
Hi,

Don't you guys hate the work after holiday ? mad

First, thanks all for mentioning about the software! I use a computer everyday but when it comes to music, I am clueless. First time I saw those software boxes with a photo of grand piano, I thought it's a game or something. I've never read any threads about those. :p Ok. So now I know I can get any piano sound I want with a couple hundred bucks. (eek!)

Thanks, D.Laviolette for sharing experience and input as well. No, it's not late. I will try CA51 (coz they don't have CE200 on the floor) and P140 again this weekend. I personally prefer a portable one....not because I have a gig (yeah right.) It's just I move things around my place quite often. The CE200 is even heavier than me. I also like a cleaner look of P140. But it's not my main concern when it comes to piano.

It's hard for a newbie like me to say sound or touch is more important. I agree that Kawai's wooden keys make it more special than others. And I do feel the difference compared to Yamaha's GHS, GH and GH3. But it is not like I cannot play on Yamaha at all. With P140 I'd think I am still able to learn how to play a piano and save money. (That's like 4 months of piano classes!)

A digital piano with P140's 3 piano sound and wooden key action will be a perfect one for me (for now. :p ) I know I am dreaming.

grrrrr....(Anyway thanks for bearing w/ me. I'd better go back to practice! I just talked to my 'prospective' teacher again and I might start my first piano lesson very soon! I am excited. laugh He asked me about my goal, what I am interested to play and to bring the books I am using to the first class. It seems to be a good start, heh ? He recognized the piece by Purcell I played on a digital piano at the store which is also a music school and want to hear it again. (Eww) ok ok I am leaving.)

TinyHands

Oh, FYI guys, if you're considering Kawai CE200, it comes with 3 years part and labor warranty. I just got this confirmed by Kawai US. I was told by the dealer that there is no warranty for CE200. They might only forget or want to sell CA51 which they said it comes with 5 years warranty. So you'd better double check!

And if you want the manual which is not available on Kawai website (and almost anywhere), you can request their digital piano product support via email. They get back to you pretty quickly.


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679398 - 10/16/08 05:24 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 265
salzdt Offline
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salzdt  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Greenport, New York
Tinyhands,
Question about the Kawia CE 200? I recently traded in my Roland HP 103 PE, because I traded it in for my acoustic baby grand. I'm looking to get another digital and I'm considering the CE 200. How do they compare? I would have to order it from Sam Ash, no local dealer. There is a Sam Ash music store about 60 miles from home. Not sure if they carry the Kawia in the store. Any info would be appreciated. wink
Dot


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#679399 - 10/16/08 06:49 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,504
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
salzdt, I would recommend telephoning the store before setting out, just in case they do not stock the CE200.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#679400 - 10/16/08 08:06 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: May 2007
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MarkL Offline
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MarkL  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 728
Chicago Suburban
TinyHands
I have a used P140 with the Yamaha stand that's like new that I'd like to sell. Here it is on Craigslist:
P-140 for sale


Yamaha P90
#679401 - 10/17/08 09:59 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
TinyHands Offline
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TinyHands  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 92
Reston, Virginia
Quote
Originally posted by salzdt:
Tinyhands,
Question about the Kawia CE 200? I recently traded in my Roland HP 103 PE, because I traded it in for my acoustic baby grand. I'm looking to get another digital and I'm considering the CE 200. How do they compare? I would have to order it from Sam Ash, no local dealer. There is a Sam Ash music store about 60 miles from home. Not sure if they carry the Kawia in the store. Any info would be appreciated. wink
Dot
Hi Salzdt,

The one I have tried is CA51, not CE200. I went to the dealer store and they just don't carry it. But I heard people (here and other places) saying they're pretty similar. CE200's action is a bit "tighter" and it has less feature than CA51.

I agree w/ James that you'd better call first.

Kawai dealer can order CE200 for me but I have to pay sale tax and pick it up myself. So I think order online might be a better option. Check other websites as well. Each has different "reputation" and shipping/delivery cost.

Sorry I couldn't help much here. Let us know what you think about CE200 then. smile

Quote
Originally posted by MarkL:
TinyHands
I have a used P140 with the Yamaha stand that's like new that I'd like to sell. Here it is on Craigslist:
P-140 for sale
Thanks MarkL! I'll look at it.

I haven't made my mind on which DP I am going with.....geez it's been so long. I've just been busy at work and with classes. Don't even have enough time to practice. (Complete only 2 pieces in a month....grrr.)

Hopefully I'll get one soon!


TinyHands


“Brick walls are there for a reason, they let us prove how badly we want something.“ - Randy Pausch

#679402 - 10/19/08 01:18 PM Re: On the Search for a Digital Piano: Phew! I'm almost spoiled.  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 265
salzdt Offline
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salzdt  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Greenport, New York
Thanks Tinyhands, wink
My purpose in getting another digital is to practice with the headphones. I now have a 5'3" used Yamaha baby grand, but miss being able to practice any time of the day and not interfere with whatever else my husband would like to do.
I'll check out the CA 51
Dot


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