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Oh, you're right. I must have somehow replaced your soundsample on my harddisk with my own recording, as the file from box.net is different that the one I was referring to.

That's really strange how your second group of notes doesn't sustain at all. I can't think of any possible reason why this happens.

I am using 16-bit samples, as they are a bit lighter than the 24-bits one, and I'm not recording, so the faint live-listening quality difference doesn't bother me.

Could you make a screen shot (print screen key on the keyboard, and then paste it int oany graphics viewer/editor, and save as a JPEG file) with your Akoustik Piano opened in exactly that settings you used to make this sample? I don't know whether I can tell anything from that - but I can look for something


Best regards,
M.

Wing Fat,

Have you tried using a different sustain pedal with this test?

That's a good question. I would suggest the same.. if it wasn't for the midi file, which behaves differently on mine AP and Wing's AP. That's what I cannot understand nor explain.

He's sequencing the same MIDI file, I sequenced through Ivory. If it was a pedal problem it wouldn't work on either software.

How are each of you using Akoustik? Standalone, as a VSTi (if so, in which host), and so on...

Standalone for me.

joangolfing: Regarding the pedal, I actually thought it might be something with the pedal (since the pedal on my new Kawai M5 allows for different values of pedal input as opposed to just on or off) so I tried it with my old Kurzweil pedal and that did not make a difference. I also tried it on an old Roland MIDI controller and same thing.

Matthijs: I have used Akoustik in both stand-alone and VST (through Sonar) versions. Both produce the same undesirable results.

Then you'll have to figure out what the differences are between your computer and Mati's.

The most obvious place to look is the Akoustik settings. Uninstalling and reinstalling it may not necessarily have reset the settings.

Another issue could be the difference in operating systems, soundcard hardware, soundcard drivers, version of Akoustik, etc.

There is a difference somewhere.

Wing Fat,

What basic settings do you use in Akoustik?

Do you switch from 50 to 150 voices with each piano?
On my M Audio Delta Asio settings I have:
monitor mixers with stereo links checked
sample rate of 44100
Latency 256 samples
6m latency

Wing Fat, it would seem like I have the same problem as you. I disabled the reverb and sustain resonance as described by you and as per the screenshot Mati posted. Using AP ConcertGrand Production, these are the results:

http://www.box.net/shared/1uuqu0p0ks

As a comparison, I ran your midi file through Pianoteq 2.2, with reverb, global and sympathetic resonances all off. Result here:

http://www.box.net/shared/woy95f64oc

One question though. How do I choose 16 vs 24 bit samples in AP? I can't find any such setting. The samples folders contain a mix of 16 and 24 bit files.

Isn't that the whole problem, disabling sustain resonance?

Exactly. Rented - what results are you getting with the sustain enabled?

Hmmm, I don't think sustain resonance should be the problem. Sustain resonance, also called sympathetic resonance, should really just affect how much the other strings resonate when the pedal is depressed.

Quickly releasing and depressing the pedal should just dampen the "main" strings a bit, and I would assume that the sympathetic resonances of the other strings should completely die (or near enough anyway).

For those with stringed instruments like a guitar, this can be demonstrated quite readily by plucking a string and then, as quickly as you can, tap the string with your finger. The string will continue to resonate. And the felt damper on a piano would have much less dampening effect than your finger.

Anyway, I tried it with sustain resonance at default, and the effect is an even stranger sound. The main strings still die out completely, but the sympathetic resonances continue, which sounds very unnatural.

While Pianoteq is not perfect, it is in these little details and nuances where it really shines. It behaves just as I would expect it too.

On sampled virtual pianos (like Akoustik), there are two sets of samples: "normal" samples and samples with "sustain resonance". If the damper pedal is pressed while a tone is playing, the regular samples are crossfaded to the sustain resonance samples. Which is really just a trick.

Pianoteq doesn't use samples, and therefore doesn't need to resort to such tricks.

Rented: THANK YOU. At least I know I'm not crazy. Also, your explanation of why this is not a sustain resonance problem (and what happens when you turn on sustain resonance) is exactly right.

For those that asked what settings I'm using, I've tried every setting possible, from simply loading up a clean install and clicking the Concert D (changing no settings) to trying every preset and further tweaking every dial and slider in the program.

Mateusz did not have this problem. However, he is using the 16 bit samples and up to this point I have only tried the 24 bit samples. So my project later today is to try the 16 bit samples. I would have done it a couple of days ago but I've already spent HOURS trying to diagnose the problem this week and I'm behind on my actual work.

One week has past with no response from Native Instruments support.

"One week has past with no response from Native Instruments support."

WingFat, they are very difficult to get a response from and their forum is not helpful. Therefore,I was glad to see some discussion in this forum.

However, for the current price of AP I think it is a great program!! They did continue sending me new CD's (3 sets of them) until I got a working install file. So they do respond eventually.

I hope your 16 bit samples test provides the results you want.

Sadly no luck with the 16-bit Akoustik Piano samples. I was hoping that was the cure but nope. I have exhausted every option I can try on my own; my only hope at this point (unless someone here comes up with a new idea for me to try) is for Native Instruments to someday respond to my support request.

Ivory is a different story. I loaded it up today and it works perfectly! I've only played on it for about 20 minutes but my initial impression is that it is superb. The Steinway had great sensitivity on a jazz ballad, and the the Bosendorfer was nice and even on an up-tempo ragtime tune. The Yamaha sounded a little harsh, but I haven't gotten into tweaking the settings yet. The important thing is that there are no sustain pedal glitches like there are with Akoustik Piano.

I'm going to shelve Akoustik Piano for the time being. All this goofing around with trying to get it running right has put me behind on a project, but when that's done my plan is to take another stab at getting it working. One of the reasons I bought it was because it had an upright piano, and I would really love to have that available and working right.

For those that are interested, I have tweaked my MIDI test a little. I removed one test and held the sustain a little longer on the single-note test.

The new MIDI file is here:
http://www.box.net/shared/5enjib7cw0

There are three tests. The first four notes are simply staccato notes with no sustain to get an idea of the sound of the piano. The second set of four notes are staccato notes with the sustain pedal pressed a fraction of a second after the note is released. The third test is a chord struck with the sustain pedal pressed, then the sustain is released and pressed again within a fraction of a second. The release/press is repeated a few times.

This is what it should sound like. I rendered this using Synthogy Ivory; however, I get similar results from both my digital pianos (a Kurzweil and a Kawai), and when I simulate this test on my acoustic upright piano:
http://www.box.net/shared/0h9x2fncw4

These are the results I'm getting from Akoustik Piano with the new test:
http://www.box.net/shared/ow17waeg48

Notice how the second group of four notes simply shut off after the sustain is pressed. Also notice how the chord stops sounding after the pedal is released/pressed in the third test. Note that I turned off sustain resonance and reverb in the above test to help illustrate the problem.

I submitted another request to Native Instruments; hopefully they'll respond to this second request.

Once again, my Akoustik with sustain resonance TURNED OFF behaves just like Ivory in your example. The results you are getting with Akoustik is definitely not normal. The notes cut off instantly, which should never happen... I will try to analyse the MIDI file with some MIDI editor to find something that may cause that behavior.

There is an option for this in most samplers: "Note release time". If this is set to 0, notes should cut off instantly.