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I've read this forum for a couple months, and learned a lot from the posts here. I'm a non-musician parent of a kid who's much more right-brained than her parents. Our daughter has been in piano lessons for about 3 yrs now. She started out improvising on our Yamaha PSR-78 keyboard, which is limited as a piano. So we're upgarding to help her piano practice, but she also spends a lot of time improvising electronic music (creating some pretty cool music IMHO). So I figure a good answer would be an instrument that does both well.

A side-question that occurred to me now: Anyone have recommendations on self-instruction material for keyboard/synth instruments, hopefully kid-friendly?

Anyway, the main question is I'd like recommendations. Here's a feature list I think would be great:

• 88-keys, good sounds, etc to serve as a good practice piano
• nice set of sounds/instruments for electronic music
• friendly interface
• on-board recording (stuff like mixing and sequencing seems like overkill)
• console (built in pedals&speakers) would be good, but seperate components is fine if that has the best combination of features

From my own research, consoles tend to be very piano oriented (duh), with pretty limited synth features. Do stage pianos tend to offer more or less synth-like features vs consoles? I think we'll check out stage pianos like the RD-700SX, P250, and Korg SP-500. At the same time, we'll also check out fuller-featured keyboards like Triton, Fantom, etc. But enough about my ill-informed opinions; I'd welcome any input you folks may have.

What's your budget? Roland, Yamaha, and Kawai all make what you're looking for. The Clavinova CVP's are nice as are the Kawai CP's (if you get one with the wood action). I have no experience with recent Rolands but I owned a G-800 workstation for a number of years.

If you can afford it, those workstations fit the bill. They're so much fun, even you parents would probably interrupt your daughter to play around yourselves.

The stage pianos are piano-centric and wouldn't be adequate for electronic music making.

I disagree. I think an RD700SX, which has a ton of sounds, along with some good software would be a great tool for kid with 3 years experience. Workstations like the Motif & Fantom are a bit much in terms of the learning curve for someone without much experience.

SteveY has a point. I forgot that the RD700SX has room for two expansion boards, so she could easily acquire more sounds. Plus, electronic music via computers is at first easier to manipulate than on workstations.

Still, I salivate at the thought of one day owning a workstation. A guy likes electronic toys.

Why not spring for something like an
88-key Triton or Fantom? With keyboard stand,
a sustain pedal (you only need the sustain
pedal), speakers, bench, and music stand
(syths usually don't have built-in sht.
music holders for some reason), you'll have
an easily portable piano/composing workstation
with superb sound and key action, for
around 2000.00-4000.00, including shipping;
that's less than what many folks spend on
a run-of-the-mill used acoustic upright.

Another thing to keep in mind about synths (as compared to digital pianos) - synths typically have equally weighted keys rather than graded/progressive weighted keys. This may or not be a concern.

I would stay away from any synth or cheesy feeling keyboard. Get a digital piano, in fact try out the Yamaha CVP line and compare it with all the others. Hard to beat.

Look at all the extra attachment you'll need for the synth/stage keyboard route. Plus that stuff looks like heck sometimes with wires all over the place. Keep it simple, get great results from the first day of ownership. Besides the sound on the RD700SX is not a great piano sound as the sample doesn't have the depth of a true nine foot piano, the stereo imaging is not accurate and the keyboard comes without an amp or speakers. For what you looking at getting done, the synth/stage keyboard is not the right match for a child learning piano and increasing her skills in electronic music. A digital piano is a far better use of your money for the purpose you state.

Spoken like a Yamaha dealer.

All the 88-key Tritons have the top-of-the-line
graded hammer action keyboard, and I can't
believe that a quality syth like the Fantom
would have anything less.

The reason I suggest a syth over a digital
piano is that this kid seems to have
interests in composing/arranging, and she'll
run out of resources on a digital, along
those lines. Plus, even with all those
wires, a syth is much cooler-looking to a
modern child than a digital, which after all
looks almost like an acoustic upright piano.
I think a Fantom or Triton would be a blast,
not only for the kid, but for the whole
family as well.

Another thing to consider is that an upright
digital is heavy. The keyboard unit on mine
weighs over 75 lbs., and it was a chore to set
it up. In theory, the keyboard is unboltable
from the stand, but this is impractical,
so it is essentially as immobile as an
acoustic upright piano. A syth keyboard
is lighter and more portable.

Try an RD-700SX through a quality speaker system or headphones and come back and try that again. Try the first Piano Patch "Superior Grand" or the "Ultimate X". Your opinion is sure to change...Not saying you will instantly become a fan of the Roland sound and Progressive Hammer action keybed but you will realize the inaccuracies of your statements above and if you don't, change your line of work.

In addition to wondering about your budget, what are your daughter's musical tastes? Where would she like to go with this? Classical, rock? You mentioned lessons, so I have to ask around what age she is; it's pertinent in the sense of how soon you might be thinking of upgrading again and what she may be capable of handling at the moment.
And, of course, don't forget you can rent pianos, too.
Oh, as a side note, Yamaha does have a rather extensive self-teaching area online. Here's a link:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Catalog/Catalog_GSXOXX/0,,CTID%253D217500%2526CNTYP%253DPRODUCT,00.html

Thanks for the many helpful replies. We'll check out some keyboards next week and I'll let you know if we make a decision. Roland has some helpful video demos on their website btw.

For Hugo's question, she's 12. She still at a learning stage where she is happy mastering pieces, almost regardless of the type of music. Nice thought on the acoustic rental, I hadn't considered that option.

As for CVP's, they're marketed completely differently from other keyboards, so it's not easy to compare. Also, I'm leery of going into a piano store as a non-musician parent shopping with a kid. I have this vision of the salesperson steering the kid to whatever they're promoting that week, and then I'm either signing a check or being a bad guy. But aside from my paranoia, the rave reviews I see on CVP's are for the piano emulation and piano teaching features. So I view it as more of a pure-piano than a combination piano/synth.

For info and pricing on the CVP's check out cvpug.com. I only wish there were enough of us Kawai CP folks to make a dedicated site!

If you're going shopping for any instrument for a kid, I wouldn't take the kid until you've done your legwork. Decide what you've got to spend on this project, go forth and gather information, including information on digital pianos, and then take the kid out and present her the options. You can do X, Y or Z...A, B,C..as many viable options as you have that fit your parameters inclusive of price.

At various times when my own child needed something that cost more than $1.98, I did the legwork, figured out some options, and was able to influence sales folk to remove any hint of $$ from the the discussion or from the object we were seeking. In this case, I'm thinking of furniture, so I don't know how well that will translate to instruments. But without price being in the mix, she chose what she truly liked vs. chosing the least costly to save $$(she's a frugal child), or taking off in a direction that wasn't in the budget or scheme of things.

It worked for me when she was 12, and it might work for you. If you're willing you can even present the pro/con list. This "one" will do these things but not those things...and they're all possible. You choose, and I'll go with your choice.

Whether you go with a workstation, keyboard, synth, digital piano, this might work.

A true digital piano has the advantage of having a very piano-like action vs. some of the synths/workstation/keyboard products. The digital piano also should have full sized keys--another advantage. The pedal function on a digital most closely resembles that of an acoustic piano--another advantage. The digital pianos--i.e. the Yamaha CVP product--are not as portable. If you or she has visions of taking her music outside the home at some point, the true digital is a back breaker to haul around. I'm also not at all sure about the sound creation possibilities on these vs. the workstation/synth option. The digital will come loaded with about a zillion pre-set sounds, but can she manipulate these and create her own versions of these zillions of sounds? I don't know the answer.

What's really nice with today's technology is you can always expand. If you find you're needing to compromise (e.g., the keyboard you like best because it has a terrific action is limited in sounds and sequencing capabilities), it's simple to add to this. (However, in the above example, it doesn't work in the other direction; a nifty workstation with a mediocre action cannot have its action improved.)

Sorry about the Roland comments; however, I sell the Roland RD700sx right next to the Yamaha stuff. Same sound systems, same headphones, lesser sound quality from the Roland, lesser sales.

OK, here's the other side…

I'm a music professional. I have $4000 studio monitors that tell me that the Roland sounds are considerably more hi-fi than their Yamaha counterparts. The action is also closer to that of my Steinway B.

I don't usually post such lopsided viewpoints as I don't find it to be very helpful for most people. I especially think it's out of place (see the "spin" threads in the piano forum) for a dealer to make such outrageous statements. But in case there is someone out there that will actually believe Theodore's claims simply because he's a dealer, I thought I'd offer up a different point of view.

The point is that this is subjective. I believe that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to tone/touch & technology from my years of experience in the industry. However, there are people that I respect highly who prefer Yamaha, or Korg, or Kurzweil, etc. Don't buy a Roland because I like it. And definitely don't buy a Yamaha because Theodore likes it. Spend some time with each instrument and see what speaks to you. If you put the time in and remain unswayed by hype, I promise that you won't be disappointed.

Well said, SteveY. I think it's important, in recent light of the "spin" threads, to take what everyone says in these forums with a grain of salt.

So, take my comment with a grain of salt as well, knowing this is my opinion. I am a performing professional who would prefer to play acoustic grands on gigs, but these fine instruments are rarely provided. It is also unrealistic with my band, as we tend to be very loud, and mic'ing acoustics is a specialized art that few sound companies (who are more comfortable with guitars and drums) seem to do well. Over the years, I have relied on Roland to provide all my piano samples, as I've found the overall experience with Rolands to have a slight edge over comparable Yamahas. I have, and still do, use Yamahas (I started with a Yamaha module, and I've owned an additional module since); even when my company provides me with a fine Yamaha digital for my use on the road, I prefer to take my RD700SX.

It may be true Yamaha enjoys greater market share. That's more easily verified or argued than something like "this model has lesser sound quality," or worse yet, "this brand generally has lesser sound quality".

As always, your mileage will vary.

Edit: Before someone says: "Doesn't greater sales say something about better quality?", I'll give the example of a certain fast food giant that is arguably the industry leader in what turns out to be America's greatest export to the world. Does that mean they offer the best in convenience food? They're obviously good at something to be generating so much revenue, and that thing is generating revenue.

Steve Y,

You're right, advise the customer to buy what you like. Then advise them to purchase a stand, a bench, a patch cord, headphones and an amplifier. Then expect the 12 year old to go right home and hook it all up without any problems. Also, using all those fine oversold features on the RD700SX should be a real breeze for the girl and her parents; in fact, they'll probably rush a fresh demo into the store for me the next morning.

Remember dude, they're upgrading from a PSR-78. Are you familiar with that? My responses are geared for customers that listed criteria you did not even mention. AFter following your advice, the customer will have spent far more money than if they simply purchased a Clavinova, that comes with bench.