Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards General opinion of digital pianos today.

I posted a couple of messages to this thread on the 'Piano Forum'. I was surprised to see such dismissal of the use of Digital Pianos, particularly in education.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/9239.html (look about half way down to the end)

Is this still what most people think? From my own experience of piano buyers I have found this opinion to be a rarity nowadays. Whats still missing from digital pianos today?

Interested to hear your opinions.

There will always be purists/people who don't like the sound and feel of today's digial piano.

It is of no use to try to convince them otherwise. Today's digitals with their improved actions with escapement let-off, feel more than ever like their acoustic grand counterparts. The sound to some leaves something to be desired (certainly not to me and you) but not everyone is of the same mindset!

Digitals today are as close as they have ever been to capturing the essence and nuance of the acoustic grand instrument but there is always room to improve....That is the beauty of the Digital piano!

Think of it this way....The Acoustic Piano is designed! It is what it is....The Digital Piano in all its varied forms WILL (I REPEAT WILL) one day surpass what the acoustic can do for a player and be the benchmark for pianists everywhere!

cobs, I was in MI retail in the UK for a couple of years and found the Digital Piano to be a relatively easy sell to the public for the reasons of space, portability, and silent practice functions....Having said that, my acoustic sales were 3X what the digital sales were..I am sure that same dynamic exists today with the Yamaha Corp..Digital Piano manufacturers are making ground up every day and soon we hope to be on an even playing field.
As the quality of the digital piano continues to improve, sales can only get better....despite what the naysayers may think. The future is digital!

i think digital pianos would play more important roles in piano learning as the digital technology gets more advanced. even some people who now have acoustic pianos get a digital piano for different purposes, such as recording, composing, playing at night etc. digital pianos will never go away, and more people would play it in the future i believe.

Digital pianos like the Yamaha "P" series are remarkable instruments and, with the right accessories, come remarkably close to the experience of an acoustic. Let me declare up front that I have a Yamaha P120 stage piano, like it a lot, think it comes close to the acoustic experience, but ultimately it is really just a very good simulation of an acoustic. That may be good enough for initial learning, but someone with a serious interest in piano (as opposed to keyboard), there's no substitute for a good acoustic.

That said, there are some caveats about digital instruments.

Accessories are important. You need a very good set of headphones that are designed to work with an AC-powered source, not batteries. Some headphones (like the Bose headphones I currently use) have a switch for use with an AC source (like a digital piano) or a battery source (like a portable CD player). The difference is crucial. Headphones that work well with battery-powered sources have some sort of pre-amp that jacks up the sound. This is not what you want with a digital keyboard. I had what I thought were good Sennheiser headphones, but after I got the Bose, it was a night-and-day difference. The Sennheisers work like the Bose do when I set the Bose to the battery source mode -- the sound is pre-amped -- which means what you hear coming out of your keyboard is a lot louder than an acoustic would sound like given the same touch. With my Bose headphones set to an AC source, the touch-to-sound equation is very, very close to an acoustic.

Forget the built-in speakers on any of these keyboards. They are so small, they can't possibly render the sound well. I suppose you could invest in a speaker system, but it would probably cost a lot to get the quality you can get from good headphones.

More accessories: 2 pedals (sustain and una corde/soft). Only some of the keyboards have features that permit 1/2 and 1/4 pedaling with the sustain pedal -- a technique that is quite common on an acoustic, so it's important to make sure this feature is available, whatever brand you choose. My P120 has this feature, but I'm sure there are Korgs and Rolands that do, too.

A music shelf. The music desk on digital pianos is on the level of the piano -- that is, about a foot or more lower than it is on an acoustic. So you need to install a music shelf at the same height as a music desk would be on an acoustic. Why is this important? Partly to make the transition between digital and acoustic easier, and partly to prevent neck pain and tension from always looking down at the music instead of straight ahead.

If you get a stage piano, you'll need a stand. I think the Z stands are better, more adjustable, more stable, etc. than the cheaper X stands. (Why get a stage piano? You can get the same features as on a more expensive "clavinova" but the keyboard is portable and cheaper because you're not paying for the case.)

You want to be sure you get a digital that reproduces the touch of an acoustic. The cheaper ones don't, but most of the higher-end, "professional" ones do. If someone plans to play both digital and acoustic, this feature is important.

You also want an instrument with realistic piano sound. My P120 has 4 piano voices, only one of which I like, so it pays to take someone shopping with you who knows good piano sound when they hear it.

I think a good digital keyboard with the right accessories is an acceptable alternative to an acoustic, especially if your budget is limited. In my opinion, I'd rather practice on a good digital than on just about any upright. I'll also tell you I'd rather practice on a good grand than a digital -- but given the price differential, I understand why people are going digital, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad choice. Just my opinion.

The arguments against digital instrument are largely historical or taken from people with limited experience. The modern high end digital solutions are truely remarkable instruments in their own right but ALSO come close to simulating the touch and tone of a very good grand piano. That said, there still is cheap/poorly made digital instruments that are simply toys and shouldn't be compared to anything.

I spent a couple of lunch hours last week touring a few of the local acoustic piano dealers, trying everything on their showroom floors. I can honestly say that I was only able to find 2 grands that even came close to the qualty of feel of my digitals. There were a couple of other grands that also had better tone but the vast majority did NOT. Also, I wasn't able to find a single upright that had either better touch or tone.

Granted I have the setup to play computer samples as well as ROM samples from the keyboards which means I have access to sounds from various Steinways, 2 Yamahas C7, Yamaha CFIII, a Bosendorfer 290, a Boston upright and an Estonia grand. Digital affords me the option of playing just about any type of piano I want but with the consistant, reliable action of the digital.

I would hazard that the argument is already leaning towards the digital side (assuming that the correct gear is used) and that in the next few years we'll see a dramatic shift to the digital (dark) side. ;-)

BTW:

I also own a tuned and regulated (babied) Hardman Peck (antique) grand that goes unplayed by everyone except my son because we enjoy the digital instruments more. The odd squeek, click, buzz and thump that I find in the acoustic is enough to drive me craze. Many will argue that this is part of the experience on an acoustic but these are the same people who argue that records and tapes are better than CDs and that the POPs and hiss are part of the experience.

Shouldnt the question be re-worded from "Which is better" to "which is more enjoyable"?

Rodney

These replies echo my point of view precisely. Glad to be reassured that I'm not the only one enthusiastic about these instruments!

as to headphones, i just got Sennheiser HD280 headphone. talking about loudness, it is more than enough. i couldn't believe it how loud the sound was when i switched from my previous Koss UR19 to this one. the loudness of the sound seems increased tripple times perhaps. i had to turn the volume down quite a bit to handle my ear tolerance. i got this headphone simply because it seems having wider range sound perception than Sony's at the same price range. i don't think my ears can handle any headphone with amp, which would be too loud for me. the piano sound becomes incredibly brilliant with such a headphone, while my cheap Koss one seemed smothered the sound a lot.

I have a very positive opinion of digital pianos. They are great for beginners (which is why I bought my first one), and excellent for practice, certainly through the intermediate level. I own a Roland F100 and a Kawai MP9500, and I am quite satisfied playing debussy on these. Considering the quality of the (graded hammer) actions, sound quality, bells & whistles found on present day digitals (mid-range or even some lower-middle range like the F100), they are a superb value for the money, especially if you don't buy a model with a fancy cabinet. I would imagine that digital pianos have reached a level of maturity where they are putting pressure on the acoustic upright market.

I think it really all depends on the price range:
<$900 can't get anything good
<$4000 you can get a really good digital, but only relatively crappy acoustics
>$infinity you can get a really good acoustic that will be exactly what the digital is trying to emulate. There's no substitute, but I'd rather pay off the mortgage. And in that range, you're rich enough to have both.

For the vast majority of people, I think that the under $4000 range is pretty much the max they can go.

Another nice thing is that digitals are much more of a commodity item. You can shop around, find one you like, and order it from any dealer. Pianos are more unique and might not sound the same even if they're the same model.

I think anyone who is dismissing digitals out of hand has likely not had any experience with modern keyboards. Certainly, when I tried digitals 15 years ago, they were in no way a substitute for even a crappy piano.

Well, I feel I should jump into this conversation. I have played an awesome (and awesomely expensive) digital piano at my uncle's place (he has a kurtzweil mark 5 ensenble grand, worth about 7 grand Canadian when he bought it about 7 years ago) and just last week tried out the yamaha and roland lines. Now the kurtweil was spectacular and felt like a real piano, with very very minor differences to acoustics that they were probably in my head. The Yamaha's and Rolands were, well, disappointing. They 'clicked' when I played the keys. Even the P250 clicked, as well as the $3000 Roland. Of course I knew I could probably wear headphones, play it loud enough and be oblivious to the click. But still, it was there. Granted, it wasn't as bad as the super loud click of the casio px100. The cabinetry pianos from Yamaha didn't fare much better, although I couldn't stand the lack of buttons and easily accessible slots for headphones, etc.

Basically digitals are advanced enough in technology, but only if you are a 'early adopter' and have tons of money. For the rest of us, we have to get by with some mild clicking from our keyboards. For most of us, there is no way that the digitals come close to the great feel of the accoustics, at least not the upright Baldwin or the awesome full size grand with ivory keys my Grandma used to have (for which the majority of my comparison arises - the upright is extremely light-keyed, while the grand is super heavy - makes the yamaha p120 seem very light weighted in comparison.)

In my opinion the development of digital pianos has been far too slow.

The latest piano sample libraries on the PC/Mac platform have 24-bit samples and up to 16 layers per note. An example is Sampletekk's Black Grand which has a total of 6 GB of a Steinway D.

The flagship models of digital pianos today only have 16-bit samples with 3-4 layers per note. Total sample range is usually, at most, 36 MB. So, 36 MB compared to 6 GB, that's less than one percent of sample range! For the average beginner, perhaps the digital pianos of today will do. But for the professionals, the digital piano is still very inferiour compared to the real thing.

Of course sample range is not everything. Important is how to do the sampling and how to do the filtering etc. There are some crappy gigabyte piano libraries as well.

Convincing physical modelling of pedal and string interaction is also very important. In this field, we still have a long way to go. The latest flagship models from Roland, Kawai and Yamaha are at least small steps in that direction. It will be very interesting finding out what the digital pianos will offer the demanding pianists in 5-10 years.

Numbers reported from the piano industry this past year stated that digital pianos accounted for more than half of all piano products sold in the USA.

Like all things, there are good digital pianos and there are bad digital pianos.

They get a little better every year but are still in their primitive stages. Digital pianos have a long way to go and in our lifetimes will never feel, behave and sound as great as a fine Steinway B grand.

"in our lifetimes will Never sound as good...." That's quite a prediction! ;-)

There seems to be a lot of comparison between acoustic to digital with severl peaple on both sides of the fence. (I myself ride both sides depending on what mood I'm in that particular day). :-))

So let's state some facts and assumtions and see where it all goes:

Acoustic

Pros:

- Infinite number of velocity layers

- Infinite amount of partial pedaling

- Full rich harmonics and resonance

- Natural 360 degree (at least in a Grand) sound propegation (as upposed to directed speakers)

- Direct feedback through the keyboard (Vibration)

- Natural piano keyboard feel

- Prestige


Cons:

- Only one piano sound is reproducable at a time (between regulations)

- Almost always slightly out of tune (to some degree unless you tune every 30-90 days)

- Minor undesirable noises (squeeks, buzzing and rattles)

- Cost (Initial and maintenance)

- No Portability options

- Generally no computer integration except in

- specific high priced models or as an add on.

- Natural keyboard feel (also a pro BUT no two pianos actually feel the same and many feel bad)


Digital

Pros:

- Portable (some models)

- Many piano sounds are possible (as well as other instruments)

- Many sound reenforcement options available (amplification and speakers)

- Computer integrations (MIDI)

- Keboard feel is consistant between the units of the same make and model.

- Headphones / Volume control


Cons:

- Only 128 possible layers (1-?? of samples with the rest of the layers being interpolated using synthesis and filtering techniques)

- Pedaling is usually limited to 1 or 2 layers but up to 128 are technically possible.

- Currently, samples are generally looped and compressed which can introduce sound artifacts and noise. This isn't the case with soft-samples but we're comparing all in one digitals here.

- Synthetic resonance effects which currently don't accurately reflect the dynamics and tone of an actual acoustic instrument

- Keyboard feel isn't exactly like a well maintained acoustic


Hope I didn't miss anything.


Each person will have to ask themselves "What is good enough?"

Obviously for a concert pianist playing solo performances, only a well regulated and recently tuned acoustic piano will do.

For the gigging (pop/jazz) musician, only a portable digital will do. Actually many features of the high end digitals are undesirable (stereo samples for example can be a problem through a mono PA) They look for sounds that mix will with other instruments and sound good in a live venue.

For the aspiring amature, then almost any mid to high level digital will do BUT a good quality acoustic is desired. Actually a digital may be more desirable given the plethora of teaching aids available.

My point is that for most of us, the choice of digital over acoustic comes down to a matter of discresionary spending. Much the same as purchasing an automobile (a Lexas or a Ford). Both do what you need but there is a certain amount of prestige and comfort that comes with one that isn't, and never will be availble from the other.

Rodney

Ever golf or bowl? You know when you hit a drive down the fairway, that feeling you have standing there watching it. Feels like an extension of yourself flying down the fairway. Feels very powerful. And when bowling, when it drifts toward the gutter, you see all that body languge the bowler does to keep it out of the gutter. Thats because they feel connected to the ball.

The kinetic energy came out of the persons body and lives in the golf/bowling ball. This is experienced very dynamically. When a pianist plays an acoustic, kinetic energy comes from his hands and resonates in the strings. One feels that connection to the intrument very dynamically and organically. This is part of the experience of playing the piano. No digital technology can accomplish that.

I've always been envious of other instrumentalists that have more direct contact with the sound producing element, ie violinists, guitarist, etc. Whereas a piano mechanically abstracts the player away from the strings, but still, the energy translates thru the mechanism. The resonant energy in the strings came out of the pianist.

Digital technology is the ultimate abstraction of musician from the sound. The energy resonating the sound comes out of an electrical outlet. The sound sample was produced in a studio in a different time and place, by someone else.

Digital may well reproduce the sound identically, and the mechanical key feel identically. But it will never allow the innate organic connection between musician and resonance that an acoustic provides. Understood, this is for the musician, not the audience. But without that sense, there is an emptiness in the experience.

Digital is akin to one of those virtual reality golfing games, where you hit the ball into a screen, and then you see graphics/video of the would-be result of the stroke. It doesnt matter how good the graphics are, it will never be the same experience of feeling your own golfball fly down the fairway from your own swing.

Also, getting a good tone out of a piano is all part of being a musician. With a digital, the tone is fixed and cant be altered by the pianist. I guess for many, thats a good thing as they get it for free, but for a good pianist, it robs him of the experience of accomplishing that tone on his own.

Interesting stuff Sid

I have to add my 2 cents to this...

I own a CLP170...I am addicted to playing my CLP170...I could play it 24 hours a day if I had the time.

I get grouchy if I don't play it for a day...I need my daily fix!!

Playing it chills me out...gives me a sense of inner peace...it is the best piano I have ever played on...it is like a drug to me...my playing can sometimes gives me chills/shivers ..you know those hair stood up on the back of your kneck moments!!

Lord help me when I win the lottery and have my 9 foot grand sat in the "west wing"


regards


Lee

Digital Piano's today are amazing. The technology is superb.

Every time I sit down and play my P120, I am playing a 9 foot Yamaha Concert Grand. Rich and full, warm and mellow. It is truly a beatiful experience.

Chris

Not to mention that a digital spoils you with its consistency, if you take in consideration that most acoustic pianos you come across aren't in optimal playing conditions, even at conservatories.
How many times have you been asked to play on a acoustic vertical or acoustic grand, you sit down to perform on it and it has that annoying ring, it's slightly out of tune but enough to dissapoint you, has ugly key surface, odd action...
Unless you go to a pianist's house, most likely you won't find a well maintained acoustic piano.

Hi Du Camp

You are right about lobby pianos

The first time I was "persuaded" by friends to play a "lobby piano" it was so out of tune it was unbelievable...it even had some keys that weren't working :rolleyes: ...I'm afraid to say it completely threw me ... as I was so used to my perfect "yammie"

However, its been over a year that I have been playing piano now and last weekend I got the chance to play on a baby grand at a restaurant I was dining at with friends...it was in tune but it was quite old and had quite un-even keys.

But, despite the fact I only play on my perfect CLP170...I had everyone in the restaurant literally cheering for more!!...that was very kool and I am still buzzing from it nearly a week later


regards


Lee

Yep you can't beat the performance buzz!

But surely you can't be any good, you've been practising on a digital... :p