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thanks, mark, there may be something to your last conjecture, though assuredly i do not know.

i did ask my tech to work more on that section and he advised against voicing it any further. he said that it would be better to let the piano develop on its own for a year or so, and that the imbalances would work themselves out.

in the meantime, it is driving me crazy. i'm working on a mozart sonata where most of the melody is in that octave, and i just hate it.

do you think it would be OK to remove the felt from just under those strings and see if that made an improvement? is that something you would feel comfortable doing? couldn't you always put the felt back if that section began to get too strident?

i may think about emailing grotrian in germany about it. maybe just to ask them about their design philosophy in this particular case, and the intention for that section.

in the meantime, it is getting tuned at the end of this week (i'm going to ask for tuning at A=443) and i'll see if that makes a difference.

if anybody else has any ideas or info on this, please do post it.

"do any of the techs here know what i'm talking about? and is this a common phenomenon due to scale design? and if so, how is it commonly addressed?"

What you may be complaining of is the "killer octave" which is basicly only overcome by better soundboard design

search for it on www.ptg.org/archive/pianotech/

brian,
thank you very much for sending me to the ptg board. a fascinating reference. i did do a search on "killer octave" there and one of the techs gave a test for it. he said strike A5 hard and time the decay. mine decayed fully in about 22 seconds. he said anything over 15 is a very lively soundboard, anything under 12 is a dead soundboard.

based on this, it would seem that my soundboard is fine. i also checked the crown in the treble area (it's there), and the downbearing has been checked and is fine.

i did note that the length of sustain seems to gradually grow shorter as one moves up the keyboard. (is that normal?) it is quite short at the top of the keyboard. sustain in the killer octave area is around 12 seconds. the tone is much cleaner, clearer, and purer when the strings are plucked than when struck with a hammer. therefore, i am thinking--and hoping!--this is a voicing issue.

but the "killer octave" on my piano does indeed perform as those techs describe. it's too quiet, and does have the "blown speaker" sound.

i do wonder if any of this has to do with the scale design of my piano.

i also wonder how common is the "killer octave" experience? do most pianos have this problem? are some known more for this than others?

Pique--

Just a suggestion(besides notifying Grotrian).

Check out www.wapin.com. The wapin system is designed essentially to enhance volume and sustain in a piano short of replacing the soundboard. My partner, Niles Duncan and myself did such an installation about a year and a half ago on a relatively obscure 7' grand and got excellent results with it. It entails modifying the bridge as you'll read on the website.

Mark

Pique, in answer to your question, from my earlier post:

What I perceived as 'thin' and 'hollow' may be the same as what you described as 'wooden' - but that is pure conjecture on my part, of course. IMHO Derick may have had a point when he alluded to the condition of the felt on the hammers possibly having to do with the problem (if I read you correctly Derick, sorry if I haven't). Again, just a guess and probably wrong.

According to the tech who did the first voicing, the 'killer octave' problem is common.

FWIW.

Yes, the "killer octave" is a common enough phenomenon. It can be corrected(drastically however)through replacing the soundboard. My rebuilding partner and myself achieved remarkable success in doing such with a Steinway A3. We felt that leaving the original board intact with the weak sounding octave wasn't doing the piano justice if restringing alone wasn't guaranteed to change it enough.

I've also heard though about a tech specializing in the Wapin system(which I made reference to above) who addressed the same problem in a Steinway D and corrected it because the school he was contracting to rebuild the piano for wasn't in a position to afford a soundboard replacement.

Mark@pianosource.com

mark,
even though the soundboard appears to have crown (though maybe less all the way at the top of the scale--it is hard to tell with so little room to manuever under there), and i'm told it has proper downbearing (maybe too much?) and the sustain at A5 is excellent (though not so great at A6), the "killer octave" as it was described on the ptg board does indeed seem to describe my piano.

this is a brand new piano, under warranty. it should not need a new soundboard. in reading the ptg board, there were quite a few discussions about how common this is, and that usually customers don't recognize there is a problem. there was even a debate about whether or not it was the responsibility of a tech to tell a customer about the problem if they didn't notice it.

these techs were quite cynical about the entire business. evidently, it is not uncommon for new pianos to have bad soundboards. however, getting satisfaction for the customer is next to impossible. the dealer's tech's job is to assure the customer that nothing is wrong. the customer's tech can call the dealer and manufacturer and tell them there is a problem, but then it is his word against the dealer tech's. the customer's tech has no incentive to protect the customer's interests (except his own sense of fairness and integrity) because there is nothing in it for him except aggravation.

another thing that was mentioned on the ptg board is that some voicers are very skilled at temporarily disguising these problems.

so, now, of course, i am wondering if this describes my situation. my dealer sent out his tech, who pronounced there was nothing at all wrong with the piano, and who made it sound wonderful for about one day. and who, when i complained that some of the problems were coming back, said i should just ignore the problems for a while and play the piano, and then get it voiced again in about a year.

i am wondering why the tech on the ptg board said to test A5 for killer octave problems when A5 is not in the killer octave, but A6 is. my A5 has terrific sustain. A6 does tend to drop off, however. is sustain supposed to be consistent across the scale?

how do i determine for certain if i have a killer octave problem?

if i do have such a problem, how do i get satisfaction from the dealer and avoid the "games"? should this be considered a warranty issue? how should a reputable dealer handle it if the piano has a killer octave problem?

i'd hate to think that it is my problem now to remediate this when the piano is under warranty.

also, until i read the ptg board, i did not realize that some sections of the soundboard could be dead while others are alive. my soundboard has tons of crown if you measure along the longest ribs. less so when you get to the very shortest ribs. but wouldn't that make sense, since there is less surface area with which to create crown?

i hope there is some straight shooter here who might guide me in sorting all this out.

pique,

In a previous post you mentioned a test by striking A5 and timing the decay. You said that yours decayed fully in about 22 seconds.

Is this test performed with or without the sustain pedal?

When you say the note decayed fully, does that mean that there is absolutely no sound coming from the piano?

I just want to try this on my piano.

Thanks,
Derick

without the sustain pedal. you must strike the key very hard and hold it down. time the duration with a second hand on your watch until the tone has vanished for all music making purposes. (not until every last sound is gone--that took over 30 seconds on my piano).

part two of the test: then, you depress the same key very gently, just enough to raise the damper off the string without sounding it. then take a guitar pick or similar tool and pluck the string, damper raised, very hard, while keeping the key depressed. again, time the decay. it should be the same as when the string is struck by the hammer. if the sustain is longer, or the tonal qualities are different when you pluck the string v. when you strike the hammer, then you can change the performance with voicing. if the results are the same with hammer and string plucking, then you know the problem is inherent and voicing won't help.

i timed the duration of tone as it would be useful for making music. i have extremely acute hearing, so can hear sound vibrations that probably aren't relevant to the test well after that.

i would think, however, that it wouldn't matter that much, just as long as you time the same duration of sound for the plucking as you do for striking the hammer.

please post your results with your falcone. in particular, i'd like to know how the duration of your A5 compares with your A6, and if duration changes in general as you move up the scale. what do you find about the qualities of the tone with hammer strike v. plucking?

also, the test gave a duration of under 12 seconds as proof of board failure, and above 15 seconds as a lively soundboard. i wonder if this duration can be affected by room acoustics, and that a shorter duration could be improved by locating the piano differently?

Pique--

One thing you might want to do is return to the dealer and see if other Grotrians(preferably your model too)have that same problem in the same area.
If they do, then as I indicated before this is something intentionally done by the Grotrian makers to keep that area a little weaker for a while until it brightens enough to eventually match the rest of the piano(remember my saying that that area tends to get brightest sooner than the other sections).

I once discovered that excess crown in a soundboard creates problems as well. There was a little model of a soundboard that had a tuning fork mounted on it. When the soundboard had zero crown or excess crown the tone was dead. So the optimum crown is right in the middle of those extremes. However, I'd be astonished if your piano had this excess problem to it.

If you're not getting the satisfaction from the dealer, I think you need to get in touch with the Grotrian company just to find out if there is indeed some sort of flaw that they would need to correct. And you'd need to make sure that a Grotrian authorized factory tech is the one checking it out.

Mark

pique,

Here are the decay times on my piano. BTW, there is no difference whether I strike the string with the hammer or pluck it:

A5 - 18 seconds
A6 - 12 seconds
A7 - 7 seconds

I'm surprised your A5 sustains for 22 seconds. Falcone's are praised for their long sustain. Not that I'd expect your piano to sustain less, but I didn't expect it to sustain significantly longer.

Now I'm wondering if there is something wrong with my piano.

Derick

derick,
thanks very much for posting that. it is a big help. this shows me that sustain does diminish the higher one goes on the scale. and the fact that your A6 and my A6 decay at about the same rate is very reassuring to me.

as for my sustain at A5 being longer than yours, don't feel bad. anything over 15 seconds is considered to be a very long sustain, so there's nothing wrong with your piano. one reason i bought the grotrian is for its extraordinary sustaining characteristics. if i had counted until the sound utterly disappeared it would be even longer.

ok, so apparently my soundboard is OK. now what? how do i get this part of the piano to respond like the rest of the scale?

mark, thanks for your suggestion about contacting grotrian, but in light of the contacts i've already made with them and the dealer, i'm thinking my best bet is to figure out what the problem is independently and only go to them if and when the facts show that there is a warranty issue. otherwise, i'll just have to deal with them trying to show me again that there is no problem.

unfortunately, i live 2,500 miles away from my dealer, so i can't go play other new grotrians. but i do think i may inquire of the factory if they deliberately dulled down octave six in anticipation of it becoming too brilliant in future.

Pique,

Let me offer you some free advice, keeping in mind that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it.

Three to four years ago I went on a piano safari. As I was looking mostly at used, older, quality pianos I made it a point to get as educated as possible on repairing and rebuilding. I spoke with retailers, private sellers, techs, rebuilders, and anybody who would talk pianos with me. I also spent *numerous* hours scouring the PTG archives to learn of repairs, rebuilds, and other things that can cost a lot of money on older pianos.

I found the PTG archive incredibly insightful. But one of the things I came to realize is that building or maintaining a good piano is way more art than science. People with excellent credentials didn't always have answers to issues and problems such as the "killer octave". Their experiences didn't always mirror each other when faced with similar problems.

I too reviewed the archives just now for "killer octave". Some of the things pointed out include the fact that no sound comparisons are legitimate if the piano is not in perfect tune. Many pianos have a killer octave, but not always in the same place. The same piano can have the killer octave move based on changes in household climate conditions such as humidity.

What I am trying to say is that I seriously doubt that a high quality piano such as you have has any major flaw with it. While everyone here is trying to be helpful, keep in mind that no one here has ever seen or heard *your* piano.

My current piano is completely rebuilt including the soundboard. I am of the belief that a new piano does need time (maybe years) to fully settle in. During that time minor changes in sound can occur. I think this could well be what you are experiencing. Factoring that with a piano as it gets slightly out of tune and you can really drive yourself crazy wondering if you are hearing things. I know, I've been there (And more than once ). I'm not saying you aren't hearing things, just that it could be very normal as your tech told you. My diagnosis (since everyone else seems to have one) is a mere case of "paralysis by analysis". Yes, you are hearing things, no they are are not major problems.

Since it sounds like you have no current "local" tech, I would start trying to find a good one since I'm just speculating that your dealer may not feel the need to fly one out for you every 6 months.........and you will have a life long need for one!

Pique, et al,

As an aside, A#5 is the break on the Steinway B, a piano frequently asailed as having killer octave problems. This may be part of why you see so many "A5" references on the PTG site.

Once upon a time you really liked this very piano in the showroom and, whether it is you, or the piano, that has changed, at least there is a good chance you'll find that relationship again with it. Its not impossible, but very hard to believe something has changed that radically. Hammers?

I agree with John C. If two pianos have different tunings, bad and good, the sustain times will differ. A better test would mute off 2/3 strings in a unison before clocking anything.

Chris W

the piano changed radically before my ears in just 12 hours, so it certainly could have changed from the showroom. the tech who prepared it for the showroom is a very skilled voicer, one who is regularly brought in by a lot of dealers to doctor problem pianos, especially breaks in the scale. he himself told me that what he creates is a fragile illusion that quickly deteriorates.

i do have a local tech; he is not, so far as i know, an experienced voicer.

according to the experiences of those on the ptg board, there can indeed be very serious problems with even the very best pianos. and it's not even uncommon. i have, since december, been going along on the assumptions both of you have outlined, and bearing in mind that it is a new instrument that needs to settle in. i'm merely educating myself as best i can so that i can make my own determinations of whether there is a problem or not. i've already learned that just having faith in one's tech is not enough (as has derick).

thanks for pointing out that the test may be meaningless if the piano is not in perfect tune. since the one time the piano did not display the "dead zone" problem was immediately after a good tuning, i am hoping that the next tuning will resolve the problem--and the results will last longer than one night. i have a tuning scheduled with the local tech, so we will see.

can anyone explain why tuning changes sustain?

I'm confused... Isn't A5 the first A above middle C? If that is the case, I thought the closest break on a Steinway B happened between the C#/D above this note. What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Derick

I thought the first A above middle C was A4. If Middle C is C4, going up the scale would be D4,E4,F4, etc. or so I thought????

My B actually breaks at what I would call (based on above definition) B4/C5. I know it does not break at A5. I need to double check all this when I get home tonight.

the very first note on the piano is A1. A5 is indeed the first A above middle C, which is C4.

Hi everyone I didnt mean to crash the thread, but I wanted to perhaps clear up this whole numbers business. the first note on the piano is actually A0, The numbers don't start until you get to C1 the last note is C8.

And BTW sustain times tell you a little but the rate of decay of the true fundemental tells you a whole lot more about the instrument and its refinement.

hi, alex,
thank you for clearing that up. and please do join the thread. we need your expertise.

now would you mind translating "the rate of decay of the true fundamental" for us?