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I posted this on a different forum but thought piano tuners and techicians might find this interesting, if not useful on how NOT to treat a customer -

I have a Hamburg Steinway C I purchased in 1978. I don't like bright, so I have my tuners tune it to a lower (?) pitch (sorry, not being an expert I don't have the terminology)

Both my tuners are listed in the Piano Technicians Guild. The Steinway tuner was recommended by Sherman Clay as THE Steinway tuner they use whenever they get a shipment of Steinways.

My first tuner I used for over 20 years. As an amateur I didn't know that tuning meant more than cleaning the piano and voicing the hammers. He never took anything apart to check the pads? or anything inside the piano. I don't play the piano much anymore as I have arthritis, so my daughter plays most of the time. Last year, after my piano was tuned, I went back to try and play some easy pieces and I noticed the keys had a strange thump - you know how in very old pianos the keys seem really loose and when you hit them they drop back with a small clunk? My keys were doing that so I had my tuner come back out to check it. He immediately said the felt was worn out and I should get it replaced for $400. I asked if it mattered that the felt was from Steinway, and he said it didn't make any difference. I wanted to be sure so I called Sherman Clay and the salesman there asked me a series of questions - did my tuner do this (no), did he do that (no) and so on until I realized my tuner, whom I thought was a great guy, had been doing a superficial tuning and ripping me off for 20 years!

Sherman Clay gave me the name of their Steinway technician. He came over and took the entire piano apart and cleaned every key. He pointed out I had moth damage, and that the felt did NOT need to be replaced. He retuned the piano but after my daughter came home from LA and played the piano, she noticed there was a strange echo in the treble section. I called and called and the technician never returned my calls and never came back.

I called my daughter-in-law's tuner and the owner answered and suggested he come out as he is better qualified to tune a Steinway. He saw that there was a slight warp in the frame under the keys which created the echo, he sanded it down and everything sounds fine. I would use him again except his girl friend and I are good friends and they broke up so I don't know if he'll come out again. Hopefully he's a professional and not let emotional issues get in the way of his work

I heard from the Steinway tuner my first tuner is giving seminars to other tuners on how to increase their profits. I guess by ripping off your customers! Do a quick and dirty job (he averaged an hour and half per tuning) so you can fit in six tunings a day. In the book Grand Obsession I was surprised to read how long her tuners labored over her Grotrian. Really made me realize how shoddy my tuner was. The second tuner was an Englishman who talked a great talk about the pride he had in his job. He did do a great job in how he cleaned and retuned my piano, but by not returning calls and returning to fix the problem, he negated all positive feelings about him ....

I'm sorry you've had such trouble, and agree that this is not the way to provide service. But, thourough cleaning, voicing, and such issues as bedding the keyframe (fixing the 'warp' under the keys) are not generally considered to be included in "tuning". Personally, the vacuum goes in with me unless I KNOW it won't be needed, and I do periodic soundboard cleaning as this is a bit tricky for some clients. An unfamiliar piano should be disassembled enough to completely evaluate it's condition, and the owner should be made aware of any issues that need to be dealt with now, and any that are 'looming on the horizon'. Even a 'familiar' piano should be opened up and inspected at LEAST a few times in 20 years!! No...I don't think I'd want to attend your first tech's seminar...

Not returning calls and worrying about who's friends with the ex...now THAT'S shoddy service.

As for the events related in Grand Obsession...I'm sure she paid more than the basic tuning fee, whether it was included in the sale price, or seperately contracted. I sometimes get the feeling that much of Ms. Knize's 'tribulation' grew from the writing of the book, instead of the other way 'round...

I can see that you feel ripped off, but some of the points you raise do not necessarily indicate poor or dishonest service. For example, an hour and a half per tuning is perfectly acceptable, even generous, for some experienced tuners. From what I have read here it's about the standard length of a service call. Perri's situation was not typical for most techs or owners.

Exactly.

If we spend 2 or 3 hours on tuning one piano, we cannot make a living. Just because one person spends 2 or 3 hours tuning, does not mean, he or she is doing a better job. It could very well mean that he or she, is still learning or, simply cannot go any faster than that or, chooses not too.

My average tuning on a piano in a home is one hour. I allot an hour and a half in case something else should arise while I'm there but, I do not spend the entire 1.5 hours there fixing, adjusted, cleaning etc., just for the sake of using up that time. When I'm done, I'm done. Plus, I do not perform extra work all for the same price as a tuning. None of these other items has anything to do with tuning therefore, I keep it separate otherwise, it will be an expected "free" service in the future as the word spreads. "Hey, guess what? This guy spends a whole 30 minutes extra doing this and that every time he tunes my piano...." While we all throw things in from time to time, we have to be wary of giving away to much too.

Often times, other technicians cut down previous technicians when it is not called for. While there are plenty of dishonest "flakes" out there it could very well be that one technician makes the other technician look bad simply to make himself look like he is the better of the two. Many times, they are fantastic talkers and the client believes every word. So, "buyer beware" at all times...

Jerry,
“My average tuning on a piano in a home is one hour.”

I agree. Sometimes when the piano is “not too bad” and I am able to run through the task in less than a hour, I spend the last few minutes tightening this and that, or just checking other things and making notes on wear and progression of action condition. Is that included in your 1hr. policy too?

Yes it is. Dan. Many times I'm done in 45 minutes or, even 30 so, I regulate lost motion or, tighten pedals or adjust the back checks or something, to improve the piano until that hour is up. That's when my hourly rate begins.

Hi Wang,

I think there is a difference between tuners and technicians. Tuners tune and are not necessary technicians. especially when it comes to large jobs.

Technicians repair and rebuild pianos. YOu can hire them to tune your piano and they may or may not agree on what needs to be repaired. I had a piano which 2 technicians thought needed new hammers and 1 technician did not think needed new hammers (I went with him!).

I don't think you got ripped off. You got your piano tuned. Now, the piano is showing symptoms of needing more than tuning, so it's technician time. And technicians are not all the same (including price).

One of the greatest experiences in the world is to deal with someone who knows what they are doing. The problem is that many so called professionals are bluffers and bull-shooters and only know enough to barley get by, fooling the customer and themselves into thinking they know what they are doing.

I’m not talking about just piano technicians here; I’m talking skilled professionals in general. I’ve seen it many times and I’ve been burned by others incompetence. In fact, this is why I have a tendency to want to learn to do certain technical things myself.

I will say that a professional technician (of any discipline) who really knows his or her stuff is a monumental asset to the customer and should be treated with respect and dignity. They should also be compensated accordingly.

Best regards,

Rickster

My problem is not with the first tuner's tuning; I had always been happy with it. What bothered me was, without looking in the insides of the piano he instantly said it was the felt and needed to be replaced for $400. The Steinway tuner took my piano apart for that amount, saw the moth damage, and assessed it was not a felt problem. If I had accepted the first tuner's appraisal and simply replaced the felt, I would have been out $400 and STILL have a problem which I would have had to contract another tuner to fix for another $400!

If there is moth damage, you have a felt problem. It may not be the problem you are complaining about, but it is still a problem.

How much did the Steinway tuner cost you? The first guy told you it would cost $400. You wouldn't believe how confused people get when I start explaining the details. They usually tell me to spare the details. Saying there are some felts that need to be replaced just about covers everything. It's probably his stock reason and he doesn't care to explain all the things he probably knows it is.

"It's some felts. That will be about $400 to fix." Don't criticize work the salesmen promise, only the results. You didn't have the first guy do it. Maybe he would have recommended somebody instead of doing it himself.

I think it's appropriate to review etiquette as it relates to respect for piano technicians -- none of whom are overpaid:

TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR PIANO OWNERS

Sorry Wang, but I would add that anyone who has tuned your piano for 20 years would be extremely familiar with the condition of its "felts" (i.e. hammers) without opening up the piano and therefore quite qualified to diagnose them off the top of his head.

This is a rather long story but, it is a good example Wang.

Many years ago, I serviced for a church that had several pianos. Some were older than others. But for the most part, they were all about the same age. They were all Baldwin studios but one that was a Gulbransen studio. They were pretty much used about the same amount more or less.

I tuned them yearly, did what I could to keep them going until finally I sent the church an estimate to repair all of them. Even though I had been tuning for this church for 15 years already, not to mention the fact that my dad had also serviced for this church for 40 years prior, they chose to get a second opinion.

This 2nd tuner, notice, I did not say technician, told them that "everything was fine." I was full of it. "Nothing needed to be done."

Essentially, the 2nd tuner told them exactly what they wanted to hear. Rather than telling them the truth. This is my point and this, won them over. They fell for it and I lost that account.

You know what happened? 1 year later, the music committee members changed again. That's when he pounced on them giving them his own estimate on all of the pianos which indeed NOW needed work!What was worse, was that his estimate was more than mine was. The new people didn't have a clue what was going on which is fairly typical of music committee changes.

Unfortunately, for the church, they gave this guy the go ahead and again, unfortunately, this guy happens to do lousy work. After calling him back several times to no avail and getting no satisfaction, someone in the church finally told them to "call a Groot." They did. They called my cousin who referred them to me because he knew it used to be my account. I flat out refused to service those pianos for 2 reasons and told them why.

1. I was angry that they didn't trust me after all of these years of servicing.

2. I knew this guys work and had no desire to follow up after him AGAIN. My cousin, after plenty of begging, (he can't say no for long anyway) finally went over there and fixed them all up for them. So, all in all, it cost almost triple of the original estimate because they had listened to their heads, rather than to their hearts. Consequently, they were over charged and the whole thing had to be done again.

Moral of the story is what I say a lot. You get what you pay for. Don't go for what your head tells you that you want to hear, just because the price is what you like. Go with what your heart tells you. Your head listens but, your heart knows what's truth and what's not but only if you listen closely to it.

IT IS CONFESSION TIME
I am the 'second' tuner who made the re-assessment of the original quote for $400.....
If I may be so bold as to point out a few facts which may put this into perspective whilst at the same time thanking all the above contributors for their fair comments....

1. The original quote missed by a mile...
2. Before recommending anyone spend this kind of money I would always recommend the piano is serviced and regulated to see if that sorts out the original perceived problem.
3. After pulling the action it was obvious that the keys needed lubing and the action was in need of a thorough regulation.
4. I proceeded to do all of this and clean the keys...cleaning the keys being a minor issue...but as the keys were out it made sense to me...
5.I then gave the piano my usual tuning job
6. The piano came to life, played very well without any undue noises
7. The moth damage was minimal and to no effect.
8. I charged $400 for all that work and the customer was very happy...
9. I returned her calls and went back to the house twice to listen to 'noises' which I couldn't detect at no charge...(the person who could hear these noises wasn't present at the time)
10. If you want to know why I didn't respond to further messages please read the posts regarding 'how to fire a client you no longer want'

If the above breaches any privacy or codes I apologize...
As (to my knowledge) I am the only English piano tech in the Bay Area specializing in Steinway work, I felt is was necessary to offer an explanation and allow my peers to comment as necessary..
I throw myself at your mercy.

A brief message for Anne Francis (I am glad that decent folks use their actual names in this forum)
HOWEVER....
Anne, please understand that most techs remove the action from a grand piano once every couple of tunings to look at hammer wear, do some voicing and sort out a few wide let offs and drops...if they don't, they should...
The felts are all over the place, as I'm sure you've noticed....
It is impossible to make ANY diagnosis that's worth anything if you don't pull that action....it takes a full minute...if you know what you're doing...Jerry can probably beat that time :-)
And Jerry, I like your comments and stories they resonate well with me.

Peter,

I think it's great that you came forward so we can hear BOTH sides of the story! I learned a very long time ago that not all of my customers memory serves them correctly. "It was tuned 3 years ago." .... x 2.... that's usually a little bit more accurate. Or, "I've tuned it yearly and have taken excellent care of my piano." Ya, I can see that... Only tuned twice in 20 years....

Other than that, the only thing I would like to add to your post Peter is that for all of the above work that you did, I think you are way under paid!!! I would have charged considerably more and I commend you because I must assume that you were apparently more concerned at that time with making the client happy rather than charging them what they really should have paid you.

I love how you fired them.... A good friend of mine here just flat out says, YOU'RE FIRED! They usally say HUH??? You heard me! he says...

P.S. I read your post after mine posted, Peter, just wanted to add a thank you for the kind words..

Ah, yes...there always ARE two sides, aren't there.

I couldn't just 'leave someone hanging', but I guess some just don't 'get it'--and sometimes in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the commercial bands which have bound them to another...

Maybe outright saying "You're fired" or some variant ("I prefer not to work with you any more because your demands/expectations are unreasonable") rather than simply not responding is a wiser choice. Otherwise people get the impression (like I did) that you don't care about completing your job. When I decided not to use the first tuner anymore I wrote him a nice letter thanking him for his years of tuning my piano, but I preferred to go with the Steinway technician who fixed the problem. Sadly, I was not afforded that courtesy when Peter decided he could not/would not work with me to figure out the problem, which turned out to be a slight warp in the wood that the third tuner picked up ....