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I think I'm gonna check out the Filemaker Pro program. I have been using a database I created using Microsoft Access for about 5 years. Gosh I dread convering all those files over, if I like it. Hoperfully there's a conversion thingy in Filemaker. Though I created the database, I'm not the highest tech, tech in the tuning universe.
Think I will check and see if there's a trial version before I leap.

One thing that works very well for me is I call my customers to schedule return tunings. Some annually, some semi-annually, and a few about every three months. I dont do many mail outs at all. The secret is not to sound like a salesman; no high fever reminders that "you better tune that piano, it's three days overdue" type of stuff. I simply call to remind them it's been a year, or six months, or whatever. The vast majority will have asked me to call and remind them. I tell people upfront, I never put a high pitch sales job on you, it's a service I do, and I am pleasantly surprised at the number of new customers who say, "Oh yes, please call to remind me." A good rule of thumb is: Be loyal to your customers, and most of them will be loyal to you.

John Delmore was asking the ups and downs of incorporating and other details? This is my view on the subject.

More that ten years ago a leading piano dealer insisted that if they were to continue using my services I should seriously think of incorporating. And so I did at a cost of more that AU$1,000.00 and continued to pay annually about an AU$1,000.00 to maintain being incorporated and nearly AU$1,000.00 accountancy fees. I put up with it for years because it was very prestigious for me to say that I have their account and to have the right to include them as my referees. 5 years down the track they went out business and resurfaced under different name and the new management could care less what kind of business structure I had. Soon after that I wound up the company and from then on continue as a sole trader. Nowadays the costs are somewhat lesser but I still would not advise anyone to do it.

This cut on my costs even more with the accountant and that is my other advice to anyone who would venture working for themselves. Paper work is critical regardless of the fact that is the most hated part of the business. That is why a good accounting program is invaluable. I use and strongly recommend MYOB Accounting Plus v 17. http://www.myob-us.com/

Also on the advertising front – watch what you are praying for. Because if you over expose yourself in many media one will soon become glued to the telephone with endless request for help in DIY failures, unfinished projects, sellers of old and useless pianos and phone companies trying to get your telephony account. This can prove to be very unproductive.

I think the same would be true about incorporation here in the States, Mr. G. About the only advantages I am aware of is the liability issue. Any liability issue would fall upon the corporation as far as I know. Also taxes would be paid only on the salary, the corporation pays to the owner. Not sure if there would be any real savings, due to corporate taxes.
I certainly would be interested in anything, anyone with real knowlege has to say about this issue. Not that I would even consider incorporating my one man operation.

rjalex , the personal liability issue locally was transferred from the corporation to the directors, in other words directors are personally responsible and cannot hide any more behind the incorporated entity. I have the gut feeling that USA is basically the same. Check local regulations carefully.

On the financial liability it is all covered by public liability insurance a small business MUST have. Dealing with expensive items makes sure of that. Having good neibours also helps – I am in a factory row of ten units and we all know each other for years and a very security and safety conscious.

I don't know anything about being a corporation.
That's why I didn't answer that one. I know of a major piano company here that is an "LLC." I think that is, Limited Libility Corporation? Whatever that means... I asked my tax accountant a few years back about it but, he said it really wasn't worth it and would be more paper work with one advantage of what Ron said, if sued, they couldn't come after your personal property. And, yaaa, naughty me, I skipped my PTG meeting.

The Piano Restoration Company Pty Ltd was the name of my business while incorporated. In essence it meant that the “company” had to have a minimum of two directors, a hindrance which was eliminated and now only one director is needed, the “company” was paying my wage, and the “company”was liable for any mishaps.

All that changed some years ago here and now as The Piano Restoration Company “I” pay myself wages by drawing from the business account and paying personal instead of a “company” tax, and “I” am responsible for all actions of the business failure, exactly like a “company” director is anyway.

The cost for incorporating have fallen a bit and accountancy is somewhat cheaper with the flood of Chinese and Indian immigrants but being incorporated is still twice as expensive as being sole trader or a partnership. Public liability will cover the liability needs of the business.

Just a rhetorical question: doesn't it seem that with each advance in electronic communication, people get further distanced from each other? Doesn't it seem common that the person at the other end of a phone call, or with whom one is on line is more important than those that one is actually physically with? What IS my wife doing right now.... ?

Mine is shopping! Hehe, so I'm playing!

You are very right about that Dave. Many times, I check the caller ID and think oh, geez, thank GOD for voice mail (like just now! My wife's sister called, I don't like her...) and let r ring away. I guess we do tend to be more, what can I say, mechanical?

Re: My business phone line. I thought after I mentioned it earlier. It costs me $32 a month. I keep it because it has been a family business line for over 60 years. Doing away with it would be stupid. In Michigan, maybe it's the same elsewhere but, with a business phone, you are allowed a dinky free ad in the yellow pages which is all I want anyway.

I've found over the years that many customers would rather look at the smallest ads there rather than the larger ones. I'm not quite sure why other than the "mom and pop story" type theory.

Yes, I admit, I can be very forward when it comes to dealing with my business. I have been fortunate enough to have been sucessful so, I guess I'm doing something right and at times can be a little bit (LITTLE BIT?? I heard that!) pushy. Forgive me for that.

I figure this way, if it works, fantastic, use it. If it doesn't then don't and find something that does or something that works for best for you. We all have our special little niches.

Ok, what have we missed that one of you want to touch on? Or, does anyone have questions??

Are store discounts worth it? When a tech gives a store a $40-$50 discount in return for a customer, it is the same to net income as spending $40-$50 in advertising and getting a customer. I can get a new customer for a lot less than $40-$50 in advertising. For me, store discounts are an expensive way to gain new customers. - How about those rental tunings at the "store discount"? What is the return on those for your discount? When I discount, I need to get something in return for the discount. How about those discounted store tunings 75 miles round trip? Stores might pay mileage, but the actual cost of a long commute like that is much more than mileage. Yet some store techs do all of the above, with a smile, never taking the time to add up the costs. And the store owners are smiling too!

Hey Jerry,

I got rid of my land-line last year. When I got the number many years ago I was told I had to maintain a business land-line to be able to advertize in the yellow pages. That changed. So too, the cell phone business. I now have the SAME ORIGINAL NUMBER that I had on the land-line, but it is on my cell phone. My wife has a different number and folks call her on it. Most of my personal calls are from folks who understand that this is a business and I have to keep it short but will get back to them.

My customers appreciate getting ME instead of an impersonal machine or voice mail. That plus the fact that I am second in the phone book and can answer questions immediately and can schedule by pulling over to the shoulder of the road. . .good for business. My customers seem to appreciate it.

Dennis Kelvie
32+ year full time piano tuner/technician

Good points Bob. I hate store discounts too. Whoever started that in the first place? Here, it is common practice to give them what we call a "20 % dealer discount" for tunings and repairs. And, get this, they pay $15 an hour to do floor tunings. They mostly use their own technicians anyway.

I have an agreement with my dealers here. If one of my customers comes in and buys a piano, I get the tunings. After all, they were my customer to begin with so shouldn't I then retain them? But, I still give them a discount! Why? Are we dumb?

Bob raises an interesting question by asking if store accounts are worth it. For a tech with an established clientel I tend to think they are not. To someone just starting out, and wants to gain experience, maybe they are. I suppose it's an individual choice. I strongly agree with Jerry: set the prices and stick to them. Don't undercut and dont discount as a general rule.

That said, I worked for a couple of stores in my younger days. Then when I could stand on my own, and during a few years when I had to do this part time, I did not do store work. Right now I occasionally do some store tunings for a couple of old friends who each own a used piano store in different towns. They dont send me that much, because they are both basically retired now, one is in his early 70's. The other near 80 years old. I do it only because of friendship.

Regarding phones, my home phone is a business line. I have voice mail, but my wife is usually home to take my calls when I'm out. I also have a cell phone that is a business phone.

BTW, I take some degree of comfort in knowing I am not the only one who has a dispicable sister in law. You may be lucky Jerry, I have two of the dreaded beasts. hehehe...No need to elaborate.

Incorporation (and LLC) vary in different countries, and state by state in the US. My organ service business was run as a sole prop. Most of my younger days, I lived in a mobile home, and did not really have many assets (other than the business equipment).
When I started in Computer Training, there was more likelihood of possible legal situations. Also, I was buying a home, and had more personal assets than before. I was able to incorporate with no attorney fees, spent less than $100 for a software package that helped me draw up the paperwork. I am quite careful to keep the rules in mind in order for the corporation to be legally separate from me. I originally set up as a C corporation, but changed to an S corporation (less tax hassle, taxes flow through the corporation into the personal).

By the time I moved back to North Carolina and looked at the changes in state law in the previous 16 years (while I lived in VA). There is very little reason in NC now to remain as a sole prop, you still have most all of the same fees to pay to the state, and record keeping is quite similar. They are also tax unkind to "foreign corporations" (my corporation from VA would be classed as foreign by NC), so I closed out the VA corporation and formed a NC corporation. As it happens, in NC, the ongoing costs of operating as a LLC are considerably higher than either sole prop. or corporation.

Even as a one-man operation, I personally recommend that one at least explore their options - get good advice in your own state (or country). Commercial bankers, your attorney, your accountant (you probably have at least one of these) are all good people to ask about the advantages and drawbacks local to you in which method to operate your business.

At least in the US, our society has much more litigation than it did a few years ago. Juries make some really screwball decisions (like holding McDonald's responsible because an idiot spill hot coffee in their lap).

Along with all the other good business decisions (this thread is quite useful and enjoyable), the very structure of your business is quite important.

I am not a piano tuner nor technician. I did spend almost 30 years as an organ tech (electronic), keyboards, amps, etc. There are very many areas that are quite similar in the two types of businesses. My firm performed service on just about all of the various manufacturers' products, and we were an Authorized Service Center for Yamaha.

I also had the situation where I had to work a large area (I live in a small town), with a lot of travel. Since most of my service work was in the nature of repair rather than scheduled tunings, I scheduled those clients who were willing to wait in a bit of a loop so that I could offer a lower travel cost to each. This was by customer decision (I have travelled from Chesapeake, VA to Myrtle Beach, SC to service ONE instrument, necessitated overnight stay). I have always operated with the philosophy that I will provide first-class service, and will charge what is needed to do so. The comments about operating as a business are right on target.

Jim

I too, as is Anne, am taking on Piano Technology as a new career. And this thread will be extremely important to me to hear everyone who adds how they conduct their business, be it in its infancy or well established.
Jerry, your comments are definitely words of encouragement to me. As are all others who are taking the time to share with their colleagues.
I will monitor this one close also.

Thank you
Mark

We all tend to put our noses to the grindstone, especially when you're at the point where you have enough business to keep you running around like a headless chicken, but you remember the not-so-distant past where you were struggling to get in-store rental tunings. When you've gotten there, it may dawn on you that you can't do it all all of the time.

It's easy to get into the argument with oneself of: "my employee is lazy," and "my boss is a slave driver! I need more time off!"

One of the big reasons many of us have ended up in this business is because of the freedoms it gives us. We can configure our schedules the way that is best for us--and of course, for our customers.

As an example, I take every Wednesday morning and early afternoon off to go for a long bike ride with a bunch of friends. I usually do two jobs afterward. To make up for the "lost time," I work 10-12 hour days the other four weekdays, and usually do 2 jobs on weekends.

Self-determination also allows me to be on hand for my 7-year-old's school plays, teacher conferences, etc.

My advice: work hard, work smart, but be healthy and have a balanced life. We need to step away sometimes to appreciate what we have.

I almost tend to think that once we are established, it might be more difficult to maintain our business, that "status quo" of super duper technician, best in the business mentality and reputation that we've built up in our clintele and in our mindset, plus at the same time, making sure our quality doesn't slip because of a big head.

It is very easy to "slide" on certain days that we just don't have the gumption. I have seen many techs once they achieved their reputation, let it slide and ride on it for a while losing interest and sometimes quality right along with it. I've done that myself, lost interest, I had total burnout for a while. We have to watch that. I'll touch on that one in a minute.. I think that is one reason, I am enjoying the Cyber-Tuner which by the way, thanks to you guy's advice, I am having much better luck starting with it from A0 and going up, thanks again for that... --- Using the Cyber-Tuner, if I happen to have one of "those" days as I did yesterday, tired, listless, wanna go home attitude, it will NOT LET YOU be lax unless you let it of course but, I won't or at least try very hard not to and in the end, when I'm playing and finished up I'm thinking Dang, I'm sure glad NOW That I didn't slack off!

Burnout. About 6 or 7 years ago, I started getting this feeling of hating tuning, sick and tired of the drum beat. Get up, rush to the first job, get it done, talk, rush to the next one, get it done, finish up the day, come home, return a zillion phone calls spending half the night setting up new appts., etc. I got to the point where I was beginning to wonder if I should quit and do something else.

It wasn't until I happened to mention this to my good RPT friend in Muskegon that he said, Jer, I had that too and found that you have to stop and smell the roses. Take some time off. Stop working so hard. Take vacation time. We talked about it for hours. In talking about that we thought gee, after 30 some years of working at let's say, GM, we might have 8 weeks of paid vacation built up. I don't know what it is but, (maybe even more!) I'm sure it's a lot anyway as we get no paid vacations. We should at least be taking 6 weeks off for ourselves. So, I started doing that.

At that time, I was tuning 1,000 pianos a year, very few store tunings, all my own work, sub-contracting tunings, rebuildings, re-conditioning jobs, keeping track of it all, billing, calling,returning calls, not to mention all of the action repairs and reconditioning jobs that I was doing myself too! I was doing it all and I just couldn't stand it anymore! :t: I had total burnout!!!!

So, I cut back way back on my tunings for a good year, took about 8 weeks off, not in a row but, within about 8 months and after about a year, felt much better. So, we have to make sure that we not only work hard, work smart but, also, pamper ourselves a bit, rewarding ourselves.

My reward was this. Many years ago, we took in 4 different exchange students. 1 for 2 weeks, the other 3 for 11 months. In Sept of 2006, we flew to Berlin Germany to attend our exchange daughters wedding and what a blast that was! Then, the following Feb, we flew to Japan to visit our other one for 10 more days. Jet lag's a killer man.. Take a few more off when you come back if you ever do that...

I'm telling you this to make a point. Besides, to say what a wonderful experience it was! So long as we stay home, or around town, we feel guilty for not working. at least, I do. If our friends see us, they say, hey, you not working today? Nope, ahhh, must be nice and they just think you're screwing around (again) right? So, we have to leave town. Leave the phones behind. Especially the business phones.

Take the time to make sure you do not get burnout. I tell you this from experience. It is one heck of a miserable feeling and very difficult to get rid of!!

Also, from September through December, I am cramming a lot of tunings in so, In January, I reverse that trend starting by taking a week off.

Hi all!

Jerry, thank you so much for starting what I would consider the most productive/useful thread I've come accross so far in the whole PW forums. I know there many interesting and informative stuff outhere but.... anyway, back to your thread:

I think everything said makes a lot of sense and all the comments made by Jerry ant the rest of you have been very complete with info

It is SO TRUE, what you say about never forgetting that tuning and repairing pianos is actually a BUSINESS!!!

Plumbers, electricians, mechanics... all charge by the hour, in fact, I know certain car garages charge per minute! so even if opening and closing the bonnet or taking and replacing the oil lid/cup are activities that take one minute, they still write them down in the invoice and of course charge you, I know it may seem a little extreme but like it's been said before, when you add the minutes in a year you do things for free....

Also, what tends to happen when doing too many freebies, is that people don't really appreciate your work, and that's entirely because you are giving it away for free!

On the other hand, often customers don't realise that just because they play the piano for leisure, we should work for the love of art! but then again, we are responsible for it if we let it happen.

I don't think it's been mentioned so far, APPEARANCE, I've met so many tuners that wear old broken jeans and smell like they don't wash very often.... or carry their tools in a notveryproffesional looking case (or supermarket plastic bag!!! yes, I've seen it!!!!)... When working in peoples homes or working for institutions, concert managers, etc. one has to present themselves in a nice way, even if you think customers only care about your good work and how pleasant you are to talk to... I can tell you that to a certain extent your work will be judged depending on whether or not you have the appropiate appearance. By appropiate I mean, long hair and beard is right for some, shaved head is right for others, some will benefit from wearing a tie, others could actually be perceived as over the top...

So even if one is awkward chatting to customers or the quality of the work leaves a little to be desired, then appearance and the "proffesional look" will save you and make customers feel comfortable having you back, then of course on the other hand some will make up the lousy appearance with good work or customer relations... Anyway I'm sure you all know what I mean... I'm just too sleepy at this time to put my thoughts into writing.

Once again Jerry, I'm so pleased this thread has come up, now I know I'm not alone in the "business"

Ladies and Gents, that's all from this side of the atlantic, well mediterranean i should maybe say... Goodnight!

oops! just realised my spelling wasn't up to much tonight... Appearance is the right way, not appeareance... oh well I guess if I look the part no one would notice

Dave has a good point about avoiding burnout by taking time off. I have to force time off by actually scheduling it in my calendar, or I find myself scheduling work instead! Wow! That much for floor tunings??? sign me up.....not.

I want you all to know that you are each stimulating me with your input as much as I hope that I am stimulating you. I don't address each of you individually but, I am loving to read all of the great input and advice here. It's wonderful stuff.

We need to put all of this learning into practice if we are not already doing so. We need to keep the "attaboy" you're doing a great job pat on the back to one another too.

I've always said that it's way to easy to complain. But, it's much more important to compliment.

For example, how quickly can you think of something negative about, oh, say your sister in law? Hehe... I can think of 10 right now! Now, how quickly can you think of 10 postive thoughts about her? Ummm, 1/2.......,,,,.. ummmmm....

All of our advice is freely given. All of our is "free." How many people charge to order books on this stuff? Advice is wisdom, something learned from maybe trial and error.

It is only fair for us as reputable, hard working, honest, dependable and ethical technicians who have to pay for our own technical education to be paid an honest wage.

Any seminars, conventions, any types of advancments we may want to make in field is paid for by whom? US. Most clients do not even begin to consider the amount of money we dish out in health care alone because they get it for nothing or next to it and take it for granted.

I honestly believe, the only people in charge of what we are to be paid, is us. If all the "good" techs in our areas were to charge accordingly or appropriately and do so consistently, and of course it should go without saying, honestly, then, every one of us would be getting a fair wage and earning a decent living instead of only "some of us." .... Except for, the worthless technicians who could care less about their quality anyway, then, that would be as it should be, right?

Do you know how often I've heard, "I really need to raise my rates." Yet, they are still charging the same rates they were charging 7 years ago?? "I really need to charge more for my service calls." I really need to do this and that and blah blah blah." They say it but, they do not mean it. They really have no intention of changing one thing. Then, they complain about it later.

I say it, I mean it and I do it. And, I have NO COMPLAINTS. But, I do have one heck of a lot of happy customers that are contended with what I charge and with my work. And, I do not charge an unfair price for my work. Now, why do you suppose that is? It is all in how WE come across to the customer to begin with as soon as that door is opened. NOOOO! As soon as they hear your voice on the phone. They are looking you over as they meet you for the first time or for the 30th time. They expect the same you, every time.

As you meet them what kind of a hand shake do you give? Is it a whimpy sissy pants hand shake? Or is it a firm, confident hand shake. Again, common sense.

Common sense dictates so much of what will happen to you, whether that be good or bad, in the decisions you will make in the next 20 minutes of your life. As well as in the next 20 years.

Anyone can do it. Like, Dave I think it was said, most everything I'm saying is just common sense.

Our local car dealers here, charge something like $95 a hour to work on a car. And, anything over an hour, like one minute? Is an additional hour, not one minute! That is a crock!

I think one of the most frustrating things is to watch gasoline prices. Nearly every station on one side of town here is 15 cents less than on the other side of town. What's worse, is that they are all within 1 cent of each other on BOTH sides of town! Now, if that isn't price fixing, I don't know what is.

If more technicians raised their rates to what they really should paid, then, the rest of us could do likewise and it would be much more consistent for everyone. At least then, we could stay within the realm of reality with what we need as a "real price increase" to stay in business.

You betcha, dress nice, look nice, smell nice, act nice, be nice and then, be your real self later on your own time... hehehe.. kidding.

Talking about the piano business. I have never really been able to find any stats about it. Eg. What size population would it take for a "career in tuning & repair...how many other techs...How long do you work at it before throwing in the towel..How do you break the barrier in areas where long time techs have sown up the churches, schools, teachers etc.and stores. What per cent of the population have a piano..what per cent use them..and what per cent keep them in shape..How many tunes or repair jobs can you expect and after how many years?...any and all insight is great to know for the new or old in this great business!!! I did piano work part time for about 6 years before making the plunge. I did do store work when the other tech moved on...it was good for referals. However he folded after 1 year. It is a grind at times. Always looking for ideas even after all these years to keep the kettle boiling...Great thread..most enjoyable.