Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tunelab or Verituner?

My old Accutuner II just died and so now I need to replace it with something new. While I would be most familiar with an Accutuner III, the cost is the highest and from what I've gathered, it isn't really the most advanced tool and it only does one thing.

The Verituner seems a bit pricey too and I am skeptical about something so new. (How long will it be before a newer version comes out?) It is also fairly bulky.

I seem to be leaning in the direction of a Pocket PC with TuneLab softwear. Would this serve a full time, professional technician well? Could I also throw away my old fashioned appointment book and pocket calculator too? Would a good Pocket PC do it all?

I really don't need an electronically generated program. I never used the FAC. I always tuned by ear or direct interval and stored my results but if TuneLab does a good job, I would be willing to try putting the correction figures for my EBVT in it and see how it does. I would also like to try Ron Koval's temperaments.

If a pocket PC would serve me well, which one would you recommend? I don't want to buy a cheap one that will break down and I also want one with some decent run time and which could be recharged in my car.

I'm looking for utility, small size, versatility, affordable price, reliability and longevity.

Hi Bill,

Oooooh, bummer! It's can be frustrating when technology fails... My laptop finally died, so I'm looking into data-recovery options now. (No matter how much I backed up, there's always something else I forgot!)

It sounds like you've already decided on a Pocket PC
I personally prefer the Verituner tunings, but it's hard to resist the lure of the smaller package. (I'm guessing Dave is working on a ppc version for the Verituner, though that doesn't help you now.)
Yes, Tunelab satisfies a whole group of full-time type techs. You should be able to do the same kind of direct-measurement with Tunelab that you are already familiar with. I haven't used the pocket PC version much, I just recently downloaded the trial version to do some research for an article. (I'll try to buy it too, Bob!) Like any of the machines, once you learn how to "guide" the tunings, by using the custom functions, the tunings will be a closer match to what you expect to hear. It has a bunch of nice "toys" and a really easy to read screen. (nice work, Bob!)

There is a ton of options for the Pocket PC platform, and yes, it's possible to go without paper. I'm still "married" to the Palm platform for all that stuff. I just have to sit down and decide what program to use... I hear Time and Chaos is a good one for scheduling and client data management.

Good luck!

Ron Koval

Bill,

I have never used the verituner but have been using the TuneLab software for almost 2 years now. I run it on a Casio Cassiopeia E-125G Pocket PC which I bought used for less then 150 Euro 2 years ago. I can reccomend this setup. This pocket pc is small but very reliable.

If you want to tune several pianos a day you'd either have to charge the battery in your car or use the AC adaptor.

The screen is big enough, the scope-simulation is very precise. I think that the software gives very good results, which can only be surpassed by a very very good aural tuning.

Of course, using this machine will take a little longer because you'll have to record some sample keys first to calculate a matching tuning curve. But once the curve is calculated, you can save it and reload it any time in the future, which is very nice if you tune the same piano twice.

This software provides a good platform for experimenting with several stretchings (you can specify the way you want to tune the octaves in the bass and treble) and also use custom temperaments.

I've never tried the overpull function for pitch raising, but it's worth mentioning. The same for the split-scale modus, which is supposed to give better results in some baby grands. I never used that feature, because I make adjustments (using my ears) when I hear something different.

The pocket PC will let you store a database of your customers (make sure to do reasonable backups on your regular pc, since the pocket pc doesn't have a hard disk and if you should ever forget to charge the battery and the additional "safety" battery happens to be low, you might loose all data).

As an add-on you can playback mp3-files (if you'd like to) while you drive to the next customer. All you need is an additional memory card.

I have to say again that from my point of view the best possible tunings can only be achieved aurally, but I have succesfully tuned for some very picky piano players (using the TuneLab software) which complained about some local tuners but didn't have complaints with the electronic tuning. They described it as clean and smooth troughout the compass.


Don't hesitate to ask additional questions.

Best regards,
Jens

Bill,,, Buy the Sat 111 and be happy and productive. :t:

Thanks Ron and Jens and sorry, Tom, I went with Tunelab. I talked to Robert Scott today on the phone. He was very nice and helpful and also wrote me an e-mail which would help me use the Tunelab system in the way in which I had become accustomed using the SAT II.

I got an HP Pocket PC, price, $379 plus a hardshell case and automobile charger. I also paid the extra $99 for a contract that would replace the unit anytime in the next 2 years if it were lost or damaged in any way. The salesperson was very helpful, he turned out to be a musician himself, a pianist and bassist and was quite interested in the application I intended to use the pocket PC for.

I have seen that I can also put all of my appointments on it and use the calculator to figure sales tax. I will be able to compose short e-mails and play games if I am in a situation where I have to wait for a while. The addition of a keyboard and battery operated printer would turn the whole operation into a truly portable office system.

Thank you for your testimonial, Jens, your English is impeccable. I just happen to have a student from Germany living with me for the year. My German is getting close to being useful. I am singing the Brahms German Requiem the first weekend of December and although I have sung it before, my renewed interest in the German language makes it a whole new adventure.

I was also more than pleased to see that when I pressed the "tools" box on the Tunelab program, my own name came up as a choice in how to tune the piano. Those figures look like they would make stronger contrasts than I actually do, so I'll just have to see what the results are for myself.

I'm really glad I took the plunge and find this new tool to be quite fascinating with unlimited possibilities for use. And it is SO SMALL!!!! (about the size of a package of cigarettes!)

Bill,

thank your for your friendly words and congratulations on your new pocket pc!

It would be very interesting to learn from you how you like the tunings it generates and which methods you choose to make it best suiting to your demands. I have seen "your" temperament file in the temperaments folder too, but haven't used it so far. The offset numbers looked like the would produce a weird sound, and I think I saw some different calculations for ETD's somwhere on the internet, maybe even on your site. I'd be very interested in hearing from you, if the TuneLabs's EBVT is really how you meant it, or if it needs to be corrected. I might try it in the future.

So, why don't you come back in a couple of weeks and post your experience? I'm sure others will enjoy reading it as well.

Best regards,
Jens

Bill Wrote: I'm looking for utility, small size, versatility, affordable price, reliability and longevity.

My tuning fork is cheap, small, portable, doesn't need power, and still good after 20 years. Just needs a pitch check up now and again.

It seems to fit all your requirements to the letter. How bout just tuning by ear again and save $$$ ????

I considered tuning by ear for a while. After all, I tuned exclusively by ear for over 20 years before I got the Accu-Tuner and even then, it took me a good two years before it was of any benefit to me at all. I kept saying to myself, "I can do it faster, better and cheaper with my $3.00 tuning fork, why do I need this $1200.00 encumberence to my work?"

But after becoming accustomed to using the ETD and being able to use it to my advantage, it is much more highly stressful to go back to tuning only by ear. I still tune almost all of my wound strings by ear and often do the 7th octave aurally and of course, the unisons too. But the hardest work is in pitch correction, temperament and the crafting of octaves in the 5th and 6th octave range which the ETD helps do quickly, easily, with earplugs in. To me, the very most important value of an ETD is its ablilty to reduce stress and therefore allow me to do and earn more.

I have read of many people who don't have good aural skills and barely earn a living tuning pianos who have multiple ETD's. They've tried and bought them all. I got a lot of milage out of the SAT II I bought in 1991 and could have just had the battery replaced but I have realized that even though it served me well, it is an obsolete piece of equipment. I have heard many good reports about the Verituner but it would have cost nearly a week's worth of earnings and is frankly too big and is only good for tuning.

The pocket PC will replace not only my old, bulky ETD but my bulky appointment book and pocket calculator as well. It is about the size of a pack of cigarettes or a wallet and is amazingly versitile and costs less than a day's earnings. So will the softwear. Altogether, only about a day and a half's worth of earnings. It can construct temperament ideas which can really only be crafted with an ETD. This may not be well understood by aural only tuners but I liken it to the fact that I know what a straight line or a perfect circle looks like but I need a ruler or a form to be able to draw one. To do it free handed would be virtually impossible.

The ETD can become an extension of the mind to a person who knows what he/she wants from it. Of course, many people will only want or dare to use the default settings but I will never use those just as I never used the FAC program of the Accu-Tuner. I tell the ETD what to do, it does not tell me.

And yes, Jens, I will certainly report back about how the various ways I will use TuneLab work out. I am always amused with the people who think that what I do must produce "wierd", strange or unusual sounds from the piano. Quite the contrary. The combination of techniques I use produce a piano which sounds more in tune with itself and is more musically satisfying to the ear than standard practice (the default settings) does.

Of course, you may think that is just my opinion but as any service provider would, I react to the feedback of my customers and give them what they say they like best. So, I do use my EBVT and unique way of constructing octaves on most pianos I tune because it almost always gets the most favorable reaction from my customers.

A good example occurred very recently. I did a day long preparation of a Steinway D concert grand for a nearby city's dedication of a newly restored auditorium. (It is beautiful, it looks like Frank Lloyd Wright did it). I had an old program I did for that piano several years ago but with a new regulation and voicing in a new hall put together with the fact that my own art is always improving and refining itself, I made a new program for that piano.

I spent three hours alone tuning the piano and programming the ETD using a combination of aural and direct interval tuning. (It was badly off pitch (sharp) and out of tune, so part of the work was just getting the pitch corrected). If I were to post the actual figures I came up with as I have done previously on Pianotech, I would have about a dozen responses telling me I need to be medicated and how the way I "stretch the !#%*&! out of the octaves" would give everyone a headache, how this is unethical, possibly illegal *behavior* and so on...

But the fact is that I was told the piano would be used that (Thursday) night only for a rehearsal of some sort. I finished my job and fortunately there was a young pianist there who obliged to play some examples while I went back to where the accoustic technicians were working to hear how it sounded. The pianist beamed with delight. The sound engineer told me that he had a very good sense of when a piano sounds in tune or not and that as I was tuning those higher notes, I was getting them "just right" to his ear when most piano tuners he had heard tuned "flat".

Of course, I appreciated that comment but the supreme one came about a month later. I was told that night I worked that Tony Bennett would be coming on Saturday for a black tie evening. "His pianist is a Yamaha artist, so they are bringing a Yamaha piano and a tuner from Chicago, so we won't be needing you for that event", they said.

I was disappointed but accepted what they said only to hear later from the chairman of the board of directors, "Oh, didn't anyone tell you? Tony Bennett and his pianist saw that Steinway (also nicely polished by the young man I had hired to do that for me) and wanted to try it. They both liked it so much that they decided to use it" (instead of the default tuned Yamaha).

They used it even without me coming that day to touch it up. I have read recently that the way they teach tuning and octave stretching at the Yamaha factory in Japan is very strict and in my opinion, flat and dead as a day old pancake.

The moral of the story is that there has to be a point at which you let go of what is supposed to be theoretically correct and go with what sounds like real music. Your ear must be the guide but a good ETD can help you acheive your goals.

Bill,

maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I don't think, that your EBVT temperament will produce a weird sound. I haven't heard it so far, I haven't tried it so far. I can't know what it sounds. So if I would claim that the EBVT sounds weird this would be a prejudge and quite the opposite of what I really tink. I have very much respect for people who have an open minded attitude and do research or trial and error on such things like temperaments in order to improve the equal temperament, whereas other people claim that there was nothing to improve.

My post basically was refering to the offset numbers in the TuneLab EBVT file and whether they are correct or not, because I think that I have seen some different numbers somewhere, which also claimed to be EBVT, but I can't remember the source.

Best regards,
Jens

Oh Bill,

I forgot to mention that there is a forum set up for tunelab users. Check the website... I think it is www.tunelab-world.com

Ron Koval

I have the sat III and i find that it works well, but i'am looking at other ETC's just to see how they work in comparison. I have seen the Reburn tuner on a lap top and it seems to work well, but i feel the lap top is too much to carry. I have also looked into tune lab and I'am thinking on trying their Pocket PC I just purchased a HP 2214 6 months ago to store customer info-schedule and contact info storage.
It works really well, so I'am looking forward to trying Tune Lab. I am definately going to research the ETC's at the next PTG convention/workshop.

Just download the free trial version. The maker encourages you to do that. I'll be reporting my experiences as soon as I'm ready to. Using a laptop to tune a piano always seemed way too cumbersome. Now, even the SAT II & III and Verituner seem way too big in comparison to a pocket PC.

Reyburn's system can also be used with a pocket PC and has been available that way for some years now.

Bill,

I assume you bought an IPAQ 2215 to house your tunelab. I have the same setup. It has been the best investment I have ever made. I use the calendar and contact functions to keep track of appointments and customers(my handwriting is not my best feature....:-) I got a handy tip from Bill Spurlock for finding my way around: Mapopolis. It's a map program that you can subscribe to for around 35$ a year, I believe. You can download as many maps as you want to, and the features on it are pretty amazing: easy to use zoom, screen that is easily scrolled with stylus, and many things I haven't even tried yet.

As for backup, my old one recently died. Everything I needed for my new IPAQ was right there on my laptop and easily reloadable thanks to Active Sync. Another backup tip: SD cards. They slip right in the slot on top of the unit. You can get cards with all kinds of space on there. The card I bought has half a gig, which will store ten times the information I can store in the pocket pc. You can set it to automatically back up everything in the handheld at a specified time and date.

Tunelab is a great program, particularly for pitch raises. That you can see the spike of each individual string is really helpful and allows for less time spent shifting mutes in strings. And Mr. Scott is quite helpful.

For those of you who are really anti-machine, understand that if you don't know what a good tuning is supposed to sound like, no ETD in the world will help you be a good tuner. It all comes down to what it sounds like, not what it LOOKS like on the screen.

My two cents,

Dave Stahl

Thank you, Dave. As it turns out, I was a bit overwhelmed by not only the Pocket PC itself but the whole Tunelab program. No way could I just go out the next day and use it. After all, it took me 2 years to learn to use the SAT II before it was of any benefit to me. But I know that what I bought was a valuable tool. This is the very busiest time of year, six tunings today alone. Fortunately, my SAT II resurrected itself after remaining plugged in for two days. I am able to use it as I have been for so many years. I just take it in each night and plug it in and it works fine.

I had someone over last weekend to tutor me and we made a little progress but nowhere near enough that I feel confident yet in using the device on the job. But I can and do see the potential. I hope to have the whole system be my appointment book, calculator and ETD by Jan 1.

I also talked to Mr. Scott and he was the kind of person I can work with. Our PTG meeting next Tuesday is a kind of "show & tell" session where we are supposed to literally show and tell what is new to work with. My shoulder bag that has everything I usually need and pocket PC with Tunelab will be my contribution. Meanwhile, my old SAT II is working fine but I will be glad to retire it as soon as I feel comfortable doing so.

Bill,

Don't forget to get a stand for your Pocket PC from Spurlock Tools. It's a really handy way to attach it to or rest it on a piano.

Dave Stahl

I have download tunelabPro and after download when I try to run the setup it give me a message saying “Corrupt Installation Detected “. Can anyone help please ?
Thanks

That message means that the download was incomplete. You need to download it again so that you get exactly 360,528 bytes.

Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties

OK I'm not a tuner, but I like my piano to be in tune ALWAYS. I'm trying to decide between TL and Verituner. I know there's a difference in the way in which they applly inharmonicity readings to the task of tuning. But I don't know really what that difference is, and what it amounts to in real terms.

Can anyone express the distinction in avowedly technopeasantish terms?

John

The Verituner can set the tuning curve without a separate measuring step. Other than that, it measures partials like Tunelab (or vice versa) and sets a tuning curve. From a beginner standpoint for default type settings, or from the standpoint of measuring an existing tuning on an instrument for replication purposes, they function more or less the same.

I am a piano tuner and I chose Tunelab for pocket pc-or in this case my pda phone. I like it but YMMV.

I read somewhere that UNLIKE TL, Verituner listens to "ALL" relevant partials on "EVERY NOTE" as it tunes. So the argument goes that this produces a "more natural" tuning; that Verituner more closely emulates what a tuner does; and that Verituner actually results in a quite different result than one would get using TL.

Is this claim true? And if it is true, would it be significant for non-tuners such as myself?

John