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#640147 - 02/01/09 09:39 PM TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,418
daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,418
PA
Hi,

I've been tuning pianos since 1979. I was originally taught to tune by ear, but later went to using both my ear and the Verituner since it was released. I'm considering buying an additional ETD as a backup, or maybe an alternative for some instruments and jobs. I've seen a lot of discussion about TuneLab on this forum, so I thought I'd try posting here.

Since this is a technical forum, I think it might be best to ask questions in separate threads rather than in one rambling thread that goes all over the place. This will make searching on these topics easier.

My first question is about multi-partial tuning.
According to the TuneLab-World web-site:

Quote

Quote

You only need to play a note and TuneLab finds all the partials for that note and calculates the inharmonicity constant for that note.
http://www.tunelab-world.com/
Just to be clear, does TuneLab now use multiple partials for each sampled note to calculate its tuning? It's no longer "either/or"?

Thanks,
-Joe


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
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#640148 - 02/02/09 12:07 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
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RonTuner Offline
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RonTuner  Offline
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Chicagoland
I believe Tunelab has always measured multiple partials of each sampled note. From there a single inharmonicity constant (multiplier) is determined and applied to calculate the full tuning. This all occurs separate from the tuning - hopefully before!

Ron Koval

#640149 - 02/02/09 10:43 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,418
daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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PA
I was a little confused about this because the documentation that I have indicates that the user selects the type of octave he/she uses. I didn't see the option for multiple octave types with weightings like the VT.

I think I understand why TuneLab is doing it this way. But, I don't want to go into too much detail on the odd chance that I might unwittingly expose a patented algorithm.

Maybe the documentation is lagging slightly behind development (like most software smile )?


Thank you !
-Joe


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
#640150 - 02/02/09 10:51 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
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daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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Oops! I reread your post more carefully.

So, only one constant is use throughout. And it's alsway been so. It's different than I thought.

On the other hand, I may have thought of a new algorithm smile

Thanks,
-Joe


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
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#640151 - 02/02/09 11:16 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
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Bob Offline
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Bob  Offline
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Florida
Not only does it measure each partial, but you have the option to make multiple measurements on each note, which can be combined for a better overall measurement. Experience tells me whether to accept a particular measurement, re-measure it, or average it out with more measurements. Partial measurements can change with the force the key is played, so I like to use 3 measurements per note, each at different volume levels.

#640152 - 02/02/09 09:43 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,418
daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
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PA
I see (I think). It averages the samples per note, and then averages those averages to give one single inharmonicity constant, and then assumes that the entire piano is using the same constant in all sections (unless using split-scale mode). It then derives a multiplier from the constant and applies that mutiplier to all notes (except one). Then the user can manually tweak.

Thank you smile
-Joe


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
#640153 - 02/10/09 02:41 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
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Les Koltvedt  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
Quote
Originally posted by Bob:
Experience tells me whether to accept a particular measurement, re-measure it, or average it out with more measurements. Partial measurements can change with the force the key is played, so I like to use 3 measurements per note, each at different volume levels.
Bob, I like your technique of sampling 3 times, but can you explain what you look for when the results are displayed for a note? and your reasoning for a re-measure.

I have just recently started to practice the "ART" of tuning and would like to learn the aural skills. Currently I have been using Tunelab to confirm my attempts and have been using PW Tech forum as a learning platform, in addition to reading Reblitz, J.Cree Fisher and purusing forum members web sites for links and info...


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#640154 - 02/10/09 02:58 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,734
UnrightTooner Offline
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UnrightTooner  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,734
Bradford County, PA
Monster M&H:

Why do you want to tune, and why aurally?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#640155 - 02/10/09 05:10 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
UnrightTooner... I have been working with a tech on and off since last summer, at first it was just to learn how to work on my own piano, with the thought of pursuing it in an early retirement. But that all changed last fall and am looking at making this one of my future careers.


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#640156 - 02/10/09 06:02 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 476
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
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Jeff A. Smith, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 476
Angola, Indiana USA
M&H,

Here's a link to one of the better current books -- and associated DVDs -- on aural tuning:

http://www.thebutlerschool.org/The_Butler_School/Books_and_DVDs.html

Unfortunately, it looks like his own supply of the book is temporarily depleted. Other sources may have it, or you could check back. The DVD has very good sound quality, and allows you to listen to the beats as he tunes an entire piano.

There are things in Butler's book that aren't even in older books, because the theory and practice of this art have progressed quite a bit. The Cree Fisher book for example, although it's being reprinted in a nice cover, is really ancient. That's not to say there aren't some good things there, but his thought on temperament tuning -- for example -- is really dated.

Reblitz is good. If you can get a copy of Virgil Smith's little book on aural tuning, available through the PTG website, it's also well worth the read.

Be careful of taking any one person's view or method as the absolute. Some things really are that cut and dried, but many more are not.

Jeff


Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA
#640157 - 02/10/09 07:05 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
Jeff,

Thanks for the link.

Les


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#640158 - 02/10/09 07:15 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
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David Jenson  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
"... am looking at making this one of my future careers." Monster M&H

'One of. "Really?

The learning curve for doing tuning and repairs on a pro level is steep enough that you might want to make it an exclusive career. At first you don't really know what you don't know, and it can look like a casual effort will suffice.

You will know what you can do, and what level you would like to achieve. Good luck. Aim high.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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