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CRESCENDO punchings #635637
04/20/06 04:10 AM
04/20/06 04:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Sweden
D
David Ramezani Offline OP
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Sweden
Has anyone tried those?

They are sold at http://www.pianofortesupply.com/

Are they good?

-- DAVID RAMEZANI


Best regards,

David Ramezani
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Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635638
04/20/06 06:42 AM
04/20/06 06:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Lowell MA
I was introduced to these not that long ago.

I like them.

In conjunction with using these on the front rail, I might consider using a thinner felt on the balance rail. Conpensate by adding a little more cardboard or paper punchings.

Depends on the feel you are looking for.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635639
04/20/06 08:48 AM
04/20/06 08:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Sweden
D
David Ramezani Offline OP
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Sweden
Thank you Larry! They interest me. I think I will give them a try.


Best regards,

David Ramezani
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635640
04/20/06 08:52 AM
04/20/06 08:52 AM
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Posts: 226
Sweden
D
David Ramezani Offline OP
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Sweden
There are also crescendo punchings for the balance rail. See

http://www.pianofortesupply.com/cresbalpunch.html

What do you think of the accelerated punchings? I have never seen those before.


Best regards,

David Ramezani
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Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635641
04/20/06 09:44 AM
04/20/06 09:44 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 605
Santa Clara, CA
velopresto Offline
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David,

I've put the front rail punchings in a couple of pianos, including my own, and I have a few other candidates in mind.

I really like them. They give a firm landing, and a very positive feel. Some people prefer a softer landing.

With the Pianoforte punchings, when you get to the bottom, you're at the bottom. Aftertouch becomes much more defined. You can't sponge out an extra couple of mm. by pushing hard. Making sure you have a well bedded keyframe is a good idea with these, because if there's going to be a knock, Crescendos will accentuate it.

I can't comment on the accelerated punchings, cuz I haven't used them--yet! Looks like a good way lighten up the touch a bit.


Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
Santa Clara, CA
Serving most of the greater SF Bay Area
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635642
04/20/06 10:24 AM
04/20/06 10:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Sweden
D
David Ramezani Offline OP
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Sweden
Thank You Dave! I will order both the front rail punchings and the accelerated balance rail punchings as soon as he gets back from Europe.

I hope that he will ship to Europe.

Thanks again!


Best regards,

David Ramezani
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635643
04/20/06 11:06 AM
04/20/06 11:06 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 605
Santa Clara, CA
velopresto Offline
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Santa Clara, CA
David,

They come from Europe, so it shouldn't be a problem. They are made of Wurzen felt from Germany, which is the felt used in some of the finer hammers available.

Let me know how you like them!


Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
Santa Clara, CA
Serving most of the greater SF Bay Area
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635644
04/20/06 12:07 PM
04/20/06 12:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
David, you may want to try some samples in the high treble first to determine if there will be any increased noise at the bottom of the key stroke. These punchings work well with a lot of piano makes, but on some you get an increased machine gun effect in the high treble. Especially on Bösendorfer, Bechstein, and Grotrian grands. I know, I tried them on several pianos, and this effect is'nt coming from an improperly bedded front rail. These pianos just seem to function better with a softer front rail punching.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635645
04/20/06 12:22 PM
04/20/06 12:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Sweden
D
David Ramezani Offline OP
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Sweden
Oh! Thanks a lot curry! I will try some samples first.


Best regards,

David Ramezani
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635646
04/20/06 12:48 PM
04/20/06 12:48 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 605
Santa Clara, CA
velopresto Offline
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Good advice, Curry. I tried samples on mine and the others I put them in. The high end is definitely where the "machine gun" effect will be more noticeable.

Many pianos start with firm punchings, but over time they end up getting spongy. These are definite candidates for Crescendos.


Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
Santa Clara, CA
Serving most of the greater SF Bay Area
http://dstahlpiano.net
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635647
02/16/08 01:21 AM
02/16/08 01:21 AM
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Maine, U.S.
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RachFan Offline
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My tech came today and put the Wurzen felt key punchings on my Baldwin Model L (6'3") (which also has Ronsen Wurzen hammers now). The bedding screws had been adjusted just a short time ago, which was fortuitous, as that apparently should be a prerequisite to installing the Wurzen punchings. The Wurzen felt punchings are of wider diameter than the originals on the piano, so better fit the width of the natural keys. They have the tapering toward the top side, and are firm rather than spongy. These new punchings totally evened out the key dip, which seems more consistent now when I play. (I guess I had flattened the originals a bit, especially down in the bass.) The action is more responsive, seemingly makes the piano sound better--more focused, and helps me to play with better command of touch. I realize all that seems subjective, but it's the sense I get from the change. I don't notice any additional key bed noise either. I'll be listening as I practice over the coming days, but as a pianist, my initial impression is that I like the Wurzen felt key punchings!

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635648
02/16/08 08:16 AM
02/16/08 08:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
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schwammerl Offline
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Belgium
Quote
What do you think of the accelerated punchings? I have never seen those before.
Some time ago there was a thread where these were discussed (mainly piannaman & Roy P contributed); scroll down to the 4th post and further down:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/3/2607.html

As I am not a tech, there is nothing more I could add.

schwammerl.

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635649
02/16/08 12:05 PM
02/16/08 12:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Do they make any difference in the longevity of the key level?

Are they more noisy or less noisy over a period of time?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635650
02/16/08 12:58 PM
02/16/08 12:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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They are front rail punchings, not balance rail. They have no effect on key level.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635651
02/16/08 02:17 PM
02/16/08 02:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Hmmm. Thank you.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635652
02/16/08 09:36 PM
02/16/08 09:36 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,015
Murphys, Ca
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Keith Roberts Offline
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Murphys, Ca
It's a new item, Curry. Crescendo balance rail punchings are available as are acclerated balance rail punchings.

Yeah Jerry, The density and stabilty of the felt would seem to make the key level stay put the first time. I have ironed them first but generally I just put them on in decent quick pass and set weights on the keys overnight and refined the level.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635653
02/16/08 09:46 PM
02/16/08 09:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Cool, thanks Keith. BTW, love that little American flag by your phone number. Very cool idea!!


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635654
02/17/08 05:21 PM
02/17/08 05:21 PM
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Posts: 1,386
Maine, U.S.
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RachFan Offline
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Question for curry:

Hi curry,

As you read above, I now have the Crescendo key punchings on the front rail of my Baldwin L. Now that I've gone that far, what will be the necessity of installing the Crescendo balance rail punchings as well--essential must do, or just optional?

Also is doing the balance rail punchings as easy, access-wise, as doing the front rail?

Thanks!

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635655
02/17/08 07:02 PM
02/17/08 07:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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Optional, unless you feel like leveling the piano's key height again.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635656
02/17/08 08:05 PM
02/17/08 08:05 PM
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Maine, U.S.
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RachFan Offline
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Thanks! I believe I could probably skip the leveling for now. But next time the tuner is here, I'll ask him to check the leveling against spec.

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635657
02/18/08 01:39 AM
02/18/08 01:39 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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RoyP Offline
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I used a set of Crescendo punchings, both rails, on my last action job. I liked them fine. As Keith says, having denser balance rail punchings makes sense, so that the key level won't change.

Some of this discussion baffles me. First, does Keith have a flag by his phone number, as Jerry mentioned? If so, it doesn't show up on my computer. I feel cheated.

Second, someone said that that punchings get spongier over time. I have never found this to be true. I thought that we replaced the front rail punchings on older pianos because they got hard and dense.

Third, if we replace them because they get old and hard (apparently some of you don't), why put on dense punchings. Other than just feeling like we need to replace the old one's with new.

Maybe I'm just being dense. Or punchy. It's late.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635658
02/18/08 04:11 PM
02/18/08 04:11 PM
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Maine, U.S.
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RachFan Offline
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Hi Roy,

I'm a pianist, not a technician, but I can say that when the original white felt key punchings came out of my 24-year old Baldwin L, there were three observable differences that I noticed as compared to the new Crescendo conical wurzen felt punchings.

First, the Crescendo punchings have greater diameter, of course, thereby underlying the entire width of a natural key. It looks as though the original white felt was 3/4" diameter versus 7/8" for the Crescendo.

Secondly, the original punchings were definitely softer (even after 24 years of use) than the new and firmer Crescendos, even though the depth of both punchings appears to be the same or very similar. If you place both on a flat surface and depress each with your finger, you can visually see the original style punching compress downward. The Crescendo does so, much much less perceptibly. From that simple test I conclude that the original felt, 24 years old as it is with plenty of use, is in fact more spongy.

Finally, when I looked at the original punching edge-on, interestingly there was an unmistakable weave pattern along its edge, just as obvious as the ribbed rim of a quarter. The Crescendo edge is totally smooth. So the process for interlocking the felt fibers must be very different.

In the Baldwin spec I have here from 24 years ago, there is no mention of the punchings in the key section. But I'm sure that when Baldwin used that original felt style in the 1980s, the product was probably of very fine quality for its time. But I believe the new Crescendo punchings are yet another improvement.

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635659
02/19/08 12:48 AM
02/19/08 12:48 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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RachFan:
I'm glad you like them. I liked the set I used. I was just raising questions more than anything.

When I talk about old hard punchings, I mean the ones we pull off of older pianos (from the 20's for instance). My understanding of felt is that it compresses over time. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, someone educate me. In any case, I would normally replace punchings just because it's old and nasty looking. My question is whether there is an actual performance difference.

If you have a piano from the 80's, it may be that the felt is now only a little denser than it was originally. I don't take the comparison as a sign that the originals have gotten spongier. How would we know where they started?

I do know that I have taken punchings off of many old pianos which seem like they are on the hard or stiff side.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635660
02/19/08 01:32 AM
02/19/08 01:32 AM
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Hi Roy,

Here's a simple test I did, although I don't know if it's really proof positive. I put both the original and the Crescendo punchings on a table. Then I depressed each in turn with seemingly the same amount of pressure with my finger. I could easily see the original sink and and compress downward. When I'd do likewise with the Crescendo, I could see a subtle, barely perceptible, compression only. To the touch, the 24 year-old punching which had seen a lot of service felt softer or more "spongy". Like you say, though, that could conceivably be a function of less dense felt in the older style. Yet it was probably top of the line or close to it in its day.

So I can't rule out that if I had one of the originals now in brand new condition, yes, maybe my "compression" test would come out just the same due to less dense felt. My technician produced out of his toolbox one of those old, thin green felt punchings, saying that he sees a lot of those in his travels, especially on uprights. You probably do as well. Looks to me like that style would provide barely any buffering at all!

With the Crescendos being of firmer felt, I did notice a bit more noise between the keys and the punchings, especially up in the treble. But I also found I got used it to quickly, so it's not really a distraction. I think the other advantages make the Crescendo the best choice, at least from my user perspective.

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635661
02/19/08 01:44 AM
02/19/08 01:44 AM
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Since I like a softer touch, I have adopted double-felting, after seeing it done on Blüthners and a Neupert harpsichord. I get nameboard felt punchings from Schaff (they were formerly from APSCO) which are the same size diameters as standard front rail punchings. They add 1/16" thickness to the standard front rail punchings. This gives a nice soft touch, and keeps the standard punching from wearing out.


Semipro Tech
Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635662
02/19/08 09:36 AM
02/19/08 09:36 AM
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In general, felt does get harder with use. The phenomenon is called compression set. I wonder about the use of firmer felt in the front rail. The harder landing may lead to some kind of repetitive-use syndrome. Only time will tell.

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635663
02/19/08 02:55 PM
02/19/08 02:55 PM
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Yes, time will tell. We must also understand that to keep a piano in optimal playing condition, certtain parts that are subject to wear and compression need to be replaced every once in a while....
Front rail punchings should ideally not be left in the piano until the moths have gobbled them up 82 years down the road...

Re: CRESCENDO punchings #635664
02/19/08 11:45 PM
02/19/08 11:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
I think Keith took it away cause, I don't see it anymore. confused Although, one person here, who shall remain nameless, wink accused me of one to many tips of the bottle??? :p


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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