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Case warped bent out of shape #635143
02/22/07 06:41 PM
02/22/07 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
woodfab Offline OP
Full Member
woodfab  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
<DD>Any ideas on how to straighten this case
<DD>I'm not sure how it got this way or when it happened. I got this from
a piano tech who was cleaning shop.
<DD>Maybe it was exposed to moisture while sitting on it's side for over
a year.
<DD>The curve straightens out about 20" back.
</DL>



<FONT SIZE=-2><IMG SRC="http://users.rcn.com/woodfab/photos/case.jpg"


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
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Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635144
02/22/07 11:46 PM
02/22/07 11:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,191
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
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Gene Nelson  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,191
Old Hangtown California
Looks like the rim separated from stretcher, key bed and belly rail - is that what I am looking at? Is the pin block separated from the case as well?
If you could clean it up, apply some epoxy and figure how to clamp and pull it back together my questions are why would it stay where you put it and would alignment of everything be fubar?
There is only the stretcher to help the warped upper part - probably not enough. Trying to warp a laminated rim to a desired shape - in my mind -could require similar tools and forces used to put the original bend in the rim at the factory.
What does the glue joint look like 20" back where the warp goes away? ARe there any beams bracing the belly and are they still attached ok? What about the soundboard?
Is this a candidate for the bon fire?


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635145
02/23/07 12:59 AM
02/23/07 12:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
woodfab Offline OP
Full Member
woodfab  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
<DD>Can't bon fire around here, but sawsall works well
<DD>The stretcher is just held by the plate and the pin block is not glued
to the case
<DD>This is a rebuild practice piano so if I fail it's no big deal.
</DL>



<FONT SIZE=-2><IMG SRC="http://users.rcn.com/woodfab/photos/case1.jpg"
ALIGN="BOTTOM"></FONT>


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635146
02/23/07 01:23 AM
02/23/07 01:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,191
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
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G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,191
Old Hangtown California
Better - thanks.
Just thinking of fun things to try as this is an experiment - a turnbuckle type device could be attached to the case where the stretcher goes - holes for bolts/anchors on the outside countersunk into case and patched/reveneered when finished. Glue up and pull it together with the threaded part in the middle. Modify and build an acceptable stretcher around the turnbuckle to mask it if it works. The other side could decide to move however.
When you put the block in use dowels to attach to the inner rim for added support.
Let us know what your solution is if you find one.


RPT
PTG Member
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Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635147
02/23/07 01:51 AM
02/23/07 01:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,520
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
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Oakland
I had a piano like that. I tried clamping and gluing it, but it is an end-grain joint so glue is not very strong. In the end, I just filled the gap with a lacquer stick.

If it is a moisture problem, you would want to shrink the inside of the case by drying it. Try shining a heat lamp on it for a few days. But if it is a cheap piano, it could have been like that since it was taken off the form.


Semipro Tech
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635148
02/23/07 10:59 AM
02/23/07 10:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
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Larry Buck  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Considering that the case is a laminated construction, changing the shape, in addition to reshaping the wood, will also stress the laminations against each other.

Any fix that just pulls it into shape will always bear the stress of the shape trying to return to it's bent condition.

I see failure in that future.

If the job is properly funded then....

Bringing the area up to a temperature where the wood and the glue are thermal plastic, then you could force it into a new shape that might hold after the area cools off.

Guitar necks are reshaped that way.
Hammer shanks are shaped that way.

I see the challenge as:

1 how to best heat the area.
2 what would be the nominal temp.
3 planning the clamping strategy

I understand this is a rehearsal.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635149
02/23/07 01:48 PM
02/23/07 01:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 78
midwest
Dave Lotek Offline
Full Member
Dave Lotek  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 78
midwest
Woodfab, what if you cut out the warped area and re-manufactured it, gluing in the new piece with heavy oak dowels or 1/4" - 1/2" plywood biscuits? Just a thought.


Piano Sales, Piano Technician, "Tuning pianos for a song"
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635150
02/23/07 10:41 PM
02/23/07 10:41 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,015
Murphys, Ca
K
Keith Roberts Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Keith Roberts  Offline
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K
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,015
Murphys, Ca
You could drill out some of the center laminations with a really long 1/8" drill until it was just weak enough to shape, then inject some west systems or system 3 epoxy in through the holes and it should stay when it sets.


Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635151
02/23/07 11:08 PM
02/23/07 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 115
Brewster Cape Cod Mass
fourthgenerationpianorestoration Offline
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fourthgenerationpianorestoration  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 115
Brewster Cape Cod Mass
you might do the following!
1. use a pipe clamp to close gap place across top of piano
2.drill 1/4" holes ,about five of them horizontaly 8" in,stagared by 1/2"apart.
3.loosen clamp epoxy gap retighten clamp
4.epoxy 1/4" hard wood dowels into holes
This should fix the problem , doesn't look like the gap is to drastic.this has worked for me a few times in the past


Jeffrey T. Swensen
35 years doing restorations
Tuning,Moving,Actions,Refinishing,
Restringing, Estimates,Players
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Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635152
02/25/07 10:19 PM
02/25/07 10:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16
Zuni, Virginia
T
Terry Greene RPT Offline
Junior Member
Terry Greene RPT  Offline
Junior Member
T
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16
Zuni, Virginia
I think this piano falls into that catagory of instruments that are ready to take up a new life in some other pursuit. Consider the virtue of renaming it 'piano-shaped-still-life' or possibly a faux-piano for set design.

However. Maybe if the soundboard seems intact, and the pin-block and plate can be re-mounted and strung up it might serve in some honky-tonk or frat house somewhere. You never know. I had a Mason and Hamlin A that was completely soaked after being hosed down in a house fire. After pulling out the soundboard, regluing all the ribs which had separated, and rim delaminations relaminated I was amazed at the nice tone quality after all was said and done. It can happen here...............possibly.

Just leave the warp there and call it a design experiment. Wood warps are the hardest to straighten permanently. The wood obviously likes that shape and will resist any attempts at correction.

Terry Greene RPT
finepiano@wildblue.net


Terry Greene
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635153
02/26/07 12:46 AM
02/26/07 12:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
woodfab Offline OP
Full Member
woodfab  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
Thanks for some interesting ideas. Well I figure it happened from being
on it's side near a damp basement floor. So I'm going to expose that side
to about 80% humidity and see what happens over a few days.



<IMG SRC="http://users.rcn.com/woodfab/photos/filter.jpg" ALIGN="BOTTOM">



Thanks, Dan


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635154
02/26/07 01:04 AM
02/26/07 01:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
I am skeptical that after the humidity "normalizes" it will revert.

It would take a little time, but I think the area could be successfully heated. This would be a more permanent change.

Let us know how it works out Dan ...

I recently changed the shape of an infamous "Kranich and Bach" key frame using heat and a couple of jigs.

As of today, still holding shape and playing well.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635155
02/27/07 11:46 PM
02/27/07 11:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
woodfab Offline OP
Full Member
woodfab  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 417
Stoneham, MA
This is a 1912 5' 3" Kranich and Bach



Well the humidity in the box was about 65% for two days and I was amazed
it pretty much straightened out. I took the box and clamp off over twelve
hours ago, so far so good.



Will it stay? Time will tell. I think I'll keep a clamp on it for a week
or so. My shops at 35% humidity



<IMG SRC="http://users.rcn.com/woodfab/photos/case3.jpg" ALIGN="BOTTOM">


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
Re: Case warped bent out of shape #635156
02/28/07 09:03 AM
02/28/07 09:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,487
CT
C
CTPianotech Offline
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CTPianotech  Offline
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C
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,487
CT
Glad it seems to have come together.

Do consider some of the dowel ideas mentioned above to ensure longer-term stability.


p.s. yer gonna kick yourself for not stripping the stretcher while it was off :p


Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
www.rivervalleypiano.com

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