Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
102 registered members (Almaviva, ando, blueheeler, Beakybird, 27 invisible), 2,073 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#633341 - 02/02/09 09:54 PM Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Fred Hamaker Offline
Full Member
Fred Hamaker  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Rochester New York
I've got a client with a Baldwin console, and a few of the hammers have started to bobble. While checking the backcheck angle and position, I noticed that Baldwin used what looks like a hard pressed paper product rather than buckskin for the catcher material. The material is (or has become) very slick, and to my mind, this is causing the bobbling. Is there a recommended fix, short of removing the paper and applying buckskin?


Fred Hamaker, RPT
Tuning, Performance Prep
Assessments, Rebuilding and Regulation
www.RochesterPianoService.com
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#633342 - 02/02/09 10:11 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
Oakland
Probably not, although you could try a wire brush or sandpaper to roughen it.

If the material is solid, you could just glue buckskin on top, and reset the backchecks. That would be faster than removing it.


Semipro Tech
#633343 - 02/03/09 12:28 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Many older Baldwins used corfam. Turned into being hard as a rock, caused tons of bobbling hammers, on their various attempts, they used black corfam too. It let off black crap all over the place and was just a total disaster.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#633344 - 02/03/09 01:08 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,947
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonTuner  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,947
Chicagoland
What Jerry said... Baldwin used to send out a kit with ecsaine? escaine? - a synthetic buckskin. I think you are looking at replacement to get it working right.

Ron Koval

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#633345 - 02/03/09 01:48 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dale Fox  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
The butt "leather" will be the same material as the catcher. Hence the harsh feel and extra noise to go along with the bobbling.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
#633346 - 02/03/09 01:55 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,135
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Sam Casey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,135
SW Missouri
Usually the corform Baldwins had the stuff on the butts too. Then they made actions with leather hard as a concrete and had the same problem without the black dust.

#633347 - 02/03/09 07:04 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
I changed a set on a Baldwin studio piano about 15 years ago. Baldwin (pre-Gibson) provided under warranty at the time, a kit with the escaine and glue. I had to replace the catcher skins and the butt skin. The old butt and catcher skins were hard as a rock and causing regulating problems.


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#633348 - 02/03/09 10:50 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
Found this article on the PTG Rob Kiddell on Balwin butt and catcher material replacement.


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#633349 - 02/03/09 11:18 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Fred Hamaker Offline
Full Member
Fred Hamaker  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Rochester New York
Wayne - did you glue the escaine over the top of the corfam successfully, or did you start by removing the corfam first? If the latter, what was your method of removal?


Fred Hamaker, RPT
Tuning, Performance Prep
Assessments, Rebuilding and Regulation
www.RochesterPianoService.com
#633350 - 02/03/09 12:23 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
Oakland
Quote
Found this article on the PTG Rob Kiddell on Balwin butt and catcher material replacement.
I notice that he mentions cutting himself with a knife while doing this. I have a Kevlar meat-cutter's glove that I use with knives. It is cheaper than the emergency room.


Semipro Tech
#633351 - 02/03/09 12:57 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
Quote
Originally posted by BDB:
Quote
Found this article on the PTG Rob Kiddell on Balwin butt and catcher material replacement.
I notice that he mentions cutting himself with a knife while doing this. I have a Kevlar meat-cutter's glove that I use with knives. It is cheaper than the emergency room.
Sharp tools and fingers just always find each other... eek


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#633352 - 02/03/09 03:36 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Quote
Originally posted by Fred Hamaker:
Wayne - did you glue the escaine over the top of the corfam successfully, or did you start by removing the corfam first? If the latter, what was your method of removal?
I removed the corfam . I think I used wallpaper paste remover. I brush the remover on with a small brush, did a whole section and made another pass with the remover and then used a sharp chisel to remove the corfam


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#633353 - 02/03/09 09:05 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
If you use wallpaper remove, which I also use even to remove damper felts, SOAK THE CRAP OUT OF IT. Repeat it, it doesn't take long to douse it a good one or two or 3 times. Don't let it drip all over though. Let it set over night and do it again the next day. It peels right off.

I use Metylan Wallpaper remover. 6 oz bottle. I don't mix it according to directions. I mix it STRONGER and then use a rubber ball syringe to squirt it slowly on catching the run off with a long towel or rag or something placed underneath it.

I love using it when I have to replace regular worn out butt heel leathers, or damper felts, the stuff just peels right off like nothing. But, only if you let it set long enough. Then, dry it, lightly sand off and, I do mean lightly, any remaining left overs, doesn't take much, and glue on the new and you're done.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#633354 - 02/04/09 09:39 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
Jerry, what glue do you use? Aliphalic resin glue?


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#633355 - 02/04/09 10:10 AM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
I stopped using wallpaper remover 25 years ago.

Problem was, stained the wood. For things like key bushings, I have a custom made steamer. Works very quickly, no stain, does not affect surrounding glue joints.

After many "Baldwins", the easiest and fastest way is to set up a block on your bench to stabilize the butt catcher, along with a chisel stop, use a nice SHARP chisel.

You will be done in a fraction of the time.

The only "impediment" will be the learning curve on handling the chisel in that manner.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
#633356 - 02/04/09 07:39 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Boy, you would certainly have to stabilize them very well too Larry. I can see a lot of beginners breaking off a lot of butt heel shanks that way. wink Seasoned tuners too. smile

I've never used wallpaper remover on anything but, catchers, butts or dampers. I take that back, I have used it on the backs of the damper levers to remove and replace the felt there too.

I guess I made it sound like I "poured it on" but, I don't. I just let it slowly seep in making sure it isn't running.

You're right, steaming is best for key bushings.

Yep, I use good old fashioned Titebond.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/tit/tit5003.htm

Even though it may be another topic for debate, I use Weldwood contact cement for the catchers.

I measure the length and width of one of the catchers after removal, take a long strip of replacement leather, mark it, cut it to the right width and then, contact cement maybe 15 catchers or so along with a length of the new leather. Once the leather dries to "tacky" I start cutting them where I have it marked and place them in place.

Only one problem with it. You must be precise when installing it. It won't come off again. It has worked great for me. Stays put. Never had one come off yet in over 30 years of doing it this way. smile


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#633357 - 02/04/09 11:47 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Larry Buck  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
Lowell MA
Quote
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
Boy, you would certainly have to stabilize them very well too Larry. I can see a lot of beginners breaking off a lot of butt heel shanks that way. wink Seasoned tuners too. smile
True Jerry, concerned about fingers as well ....

I've been nipped a couple of times myself ...
Fortunately, nothing serious.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
#633358 - 02/08/09 12:06 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Fred Hamaker Offline
Full Member
Fred Hamaker  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Rochester New York
Here's the closeout note from my perspective. First off, thanks for all the comments here. I had a few conversations with some of you offline and now feel I have an appropriate direction. Given that this "problem" is currently restricted to just 2 catchers, and that there is no excessive noise coming from the hammer butts, I am inclined to consider treating just these 2, while observing the rest. I put quotes around "problem", because the customer has not raised it as a concern - conceivably, their style of play won't even display the condition. If the condition remains contained to just a few notes, I'll first try BDB's suggestion of roughening the surface (or maybe scoring with a scalpel). The other methods proposed here are good alternatives when warranted.


Fred Hamaker, RPT
Tuning, Performance Prep
Assessments, Rebuilding and Regulation
www.RochesterPianoService.com
#633359 - 02/08/09 01:13 PM Re: Problem with slick catcher material  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,064
Oakland
To glue soft materials these days, I use Elmer's School Glue Gel. It holds very well, it retains some flexibility after it dries, and washes absolutely clean with water, so things are not tough on the next guy.

To remove those materials, I use water with a drop of dishwashing detergent in it. The wetting agent in the detergent helps the water get down to the glue itself.


Semipro Tech

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai or Yamaha for classical music?
by James Guo. 06/27/17 10:47 PM
I hope I'm still playing...
by Retsacnal. 06/27/17 10:02 PM
Playing Some (Not All) Movements of a Piece?
by ClsscLib. 06/27/17 08:13 PM
Should I give up piano lessons
by dat77. 06/27/17 08:10 PM
Schubert impromptu in A flat major op. 90
by Tuvdun574647. 06/27/17 05:25 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,493
Posts2,639,633
Members88,206
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0