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Does anyone know what the original knuckle to flange center pin distance was for a 1942 Steinway B? And, who would be the best manufacturer to obtain the shanks and flanges from?

Thank-you.

Aprox. 16mm. Renner, Abel, and Tokiwa are all good.

I would recommend that you talk to Steinway directly.
Have you considered replacing the repetitions as well??
If so, you will (should) find that the New York improved hammers. shanks and flanges match the repetitions and you should buy the complete action.
This will provide a much better touch weight....but I will bow to the greater experience of the quality re-builders on this forum.
I'm sure you will get some advice from them.

15 1/2 mm

Tokiwa makes good parts and has different knuckle placement (17mm) for todays heavier hammers. It a good idea to measure the action ratio before ordering. There are two different style whips. If you are dealing with replacement parts, that can make a huge difference

I have a simple question...
Is there a reason why you don't wish to use Steinway NY parts?
Does the action have a geometry that you feel would be better served with other parts...and if so, can you share with those of of who rarely see older instruments, what your parameters are for making your decisions.
your comments will be very helpful.

Peter, would you buy stock Ford or GM parts if you wanted to customize your engine? Factories do not do custom work. Holley carbs and Edlebrook manifolds, Koni shocks and aftermarket stuff is how you get what you want. It is better than factory stuff in most cases. Wally Brooks will get you light weight Abel parts. Steinway parts are over priced by comparison. The hammer weights today don't jive with what was.
Remember, Steinway moves their stack to achieve strike point. This can compromise the action ratio to a point where I don't like it. Too much lead to compensate tires my hands out. I can imagine why my clients complain of arthritis.

Keith,Do you think it advisable to, at least, offer up a NY improved assembly on one note to see what it feels and sounds like....
I agree that if factory parts don't work in a given situation then it is advisable to try alternatives...

Be careful when choosing after market parts for Steinway. Using alternative parts could come back to bite you. Your anolgy to Ford and GM really doesn't apply in this case, unless you were talking about trying to do an accurate restoration of a vintage car in which you would certainly want to copy the original as much as possible.

If this is your own piano then more power to you: experiment till your heart's content. Although the higher end rebuilders that I have associated with over the years have never been that enthusiastic about Tokiwa parts. I would be more likely to try the new WNG parts!

If this is a client's piano tread very carefully. Make sure they understand that they are receiving parts that are against Steinway's recommendations, and that it may bring up issues when it comes to resale of the piano if another technician brings this up.

Tokiwa improved their center pinning and the parts are dimensionally accurate. Not the new S&S or Renner parts.
I was asked to compare the two in my mentors shop. He was selected as one of the top rebuilers in the nation by the PTG. Does that qualify him as high-end?
He uses the best available at the time. That has been Tokiwa for the last few years. Before, Tokiwa had center pinning issues. They solved that problem. I saw some Abel shanks in the shop last week. He was trying those. We don't experiment on other peoples pianos. Steinway parts are not better, just more expensive. Sometimes S&S parts are the experiment in his shop.

Hi again Keith...
Can you tell me how the S & S parts you have seen are 'dimensionally inaccurate"...
Also, have you seen or used the latest parts to come out of NY....in, say, the last year or so?

Can we contact the 'high end re-builder 'directly so that we can pick his/her brains some more???

They were resized. The flanges weren't as thick. Maybe it was the renner parts. I haven't seen many S&S parts lately. Maybe if they have gotten better.
I have said before, Dale Erwin is my mentor. Are you a member of the Guild? He will talk to you. Both Eric S. in the CA division and Kent Webb have taken classes from Dale. Eric thanked Dale and Bob Davis for the class he took from them as the prologue for his class on voicing. There aren't many people who knows the "Steinway sound" better than Dale.

Hi Keith...
Forgive me if I'm a little slow at understanding this...

You said..."Tokiwa improved their center pinning and the parts are dimensionally accurate. Not the new S&S or Renner parts.

THEN you said..."They were resized. The flanges weren't as thick. Maybe it was the renner parts. I haven't seen many S&S parts lately. Maybe if they have gotten better.

On a forum where bright folks come for advice of a professional nature, and act, in many cases, on the advice they are given, maybe the advice should be from folks who have done the research, examined the product they are making sweeping statements about and can back up their claims with facts.

You seem to be very naive and inexperienced in actually doing the job yourself...I have a track record and a list of satisfied customers as long as my arm...and I believe that the parts that S & S are making now to be of a very high order and a credit to the re-structuring of the parts dept and manufacturing in recent years.
The various reports from those who visited the factory (from this forum) seem to back this up.

Perhaps your remarks would gain credibility if you were to let us know how many S & S piano actions YOU have re-build in the past few years.

I have the greatest respect for Mr Erwin and am happy to call Eric Shandall and Kent Webb, collegues of the highest order.

But you sir, are out of order.

It always seems strange to me how many rebuilders, with good reputations at that, seem to firmly believe that anyone and everyone makes better Steinway parts than Steinway does, and of course, cheaper too.

I do not consider myself a rebuilder but I do have to make large repairs on fine instruments from time to time. If a piano really needs full scale rebuilding or complete restoration, I refer that to a local colleague. But replacement of action parts is really only partial rebuilding even if it includes partial or full re-stringing. So, in this case, I have to side with Peter's and Ryan's opinions.

If it is a very antique Steinway, such as one from the late 1800's, current Steinway production may or may not be the best but surely any NY Steinway grand from the early 1900's on can use current NY Steinway parts and that is what Steinway itself recommends.

Steinway also recommends new repetitions (Steinway's own word for what any other North American technician calls "wippens"). The two sets of parts are compatible with each other. Older Steinway repetitions paired with new style shanks and flanges do pose a compatibility problem. Furthermore, older repetitions will have worn or compacted areas which should also be replaced or reconditioned. Their pinning may be loose or too tight for various reasons. It simply makes more sense to use new parts.

If a technician orders hammers glued to shanks and flanges from Steinway in NY, they will be the very same parts as are installed on new pianos at the factory. Yes, the factory people must work with the hammers somewhat, trimming and shaping to get them to fit and so would anyone installing them in the field. There will be some need for voicing too.

No customer of mine, either a concert hall, or private residence ever wanted anything but genuine Steinway parts. The cost difference, between genuine and imitation, even when considering tight budgets, was ever a deciding factor.

High level rebuilders may well have their reasons for doing things their own way but unless a technician has the kind of experience and background they do, it is simply foolish to consider putting anything but Steinway parts in a Steinway piano.

Like it or not, a Steinway piano with anything but Steinway parts can cause the value of the instrument to be severely compromised. All an appraiser has to do is see "imitation" parts and down goes the value. If the piano is to be sold, many buyers will simply pass it up for that reason alone, no matter how good it sounds or plays. "But these parts are BETTER than Steinway" would only be met with a frown or rolling eyes, no matter what you may personally believe.

Leave the alternative choices to those very experienced people who know what they are doing when they decide to use alternative parts. Take comfort and let your client take comfort in the fact that you have chosen genuine Steinway parts. It is your safest option and it preserves unquestionably the integrity of the instrument.

What he said.

Very well put Bill...thank you

Greetings,
Peter asks why not use Steinway factory parts.
I have several reasons. The first is that many of their parts are not the same as the original Steinway parts, and one must go aftermarket for the more correct replacement. Hammers are a prime example.
Aside from that, the last two sets of Steinway parts I ordered had so many pinning issues, and required more traveling paper than any set I remember getting from anywhere! Offset jacks in repetitions, damper felt that is cut crooked, hammershanks that are so far off of quarter-sawn that the flex changes the impact point, knuckle lines that look like a snake on the road, etc.
The cost isn't an issue, but when spending as much time building a durable, consistant action as many of us do, having to spend more time on such inconsistant parts isn't an asset. Simply to say that all the parts are "genuine" isn't worth it to me. Not when I get better performance out of aftermarket parts.
Regards,

Peter:

You make some good points, and I have been thinking about this. One reason why many rebuilders shy away from Steinway parts is their history. For about 1/3 of the time (mid sixties until now) that they have made the modern grand piano, their parts were questionable. For half of the above period, many times their parts were of obvious poor quality. Any rebuilder who has had many bad experiences with these parts are not going to suddenly buy Steinway parts based on anecdotal evidence. We tend to be conservative. Once bitten, twice shy. If in fact Steinway is now offering parts of the initial quality that some like you are saying they are, then any rebuilder should definitely evaluate this. In my experience, there are problems with all the OEN and aftermarket parts with older pianos. I just had to use Tokiwa shanks and the original flanges on a Hardman. Repin them all, to get a 'dimensionally correct' fit on a standard WN&G action. Worked great, but lots of unecessary work. Restoring old parts will give you better results most of the time, but many old parts cannot/should not be restored. Anyways, I will re-evaluate Steinway parts once again. If in fact, this time they did instead of saying they did, than that's a great thing for sure.

Take care,

Steve

Thank you ED. Those are the same problems Dale has had. I have been there and seen it.
Like I said, good rebuilders use the best parts available. What brand does not matter. Quality can change and so do the the parts used.

As for seriously reducing the value, that's a crock. These are parts that are made to be replaced and worn parts of any brand have no value. Using non S&S parts only compromises the piano to the cost to change back to S&S parts. That's not even 1/10 the value and if the parts are new you coud probably sell them.

Let's see, I did two days week for two years then a summer and off and on.... I probaly hung twenty sets of hammers, regulated at least that many Steinways, there are other pianos. Remember, I take it from having to set key height and everything because ALL the old felts have been striped and replaced.
I've got to do a bridge top job or two.

Just built Dale's new pinblock press.

I'm heading for his shop in a few minutes, I have a new back action for a D to work on. I'll ask him again what he thinks of Steinway parts. There may be an update.

In all honesty, Peter, it's your self proclaimed "New Steinway Specialist" that has me wondering about credentials. Most people start on the cruddy uprights and such and work their way up. You seemed to have tried to bypass the actual work and want to move right to the top of the heap. hmmmm

If you remember, back in August, I invited you all to our meeting at Dale's shop. I posted one specifically for you to see, Peter. You have a complaint about rebuilders and I wanted you to see first hand and be able to listen and play a highend rebuild. You speak so bitterly about rebuilds but are not willing to check it out. I will give you a personal introduction to Dale. You can drive there in 3 hours. He can show you stuff that I can't. I hope it would encourage you to join the guild too.

The only hammers I know of that sound anything like old Steinway hammers are new New York Steinway hammers.