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#628351 - 06/17/08 01:58 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
I am wondering how we (tuners/techs) perceive the difference. Not just what the difference is.

Does it matter?

One perceives differently than another which is obvious from the last few posts about emotions. So there probably is no definitive answer. Just opinions.

As for your school? Again, it's up to you to set down and educate them. I prefer writing a letter or email and educate that way. You will need to explain what the piano needs, why it needs it, when the work should be done, what the expense is going to be and what time frames are involved.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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#628352 - 06/17/08 02:21 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 852
bellspiano Offline
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bellspiano  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 852
Boston, MA
Tooner, I think I see your concern -- you have knowledge and skill, you have been hired by the school to make the piano better at least once, your child goes there -- and your question, which is how far to push. I'll tell you what works for me: if I have an emotional attachment to the customer (person or institution), I refer them to another technician. It is just too complicated for me to, say, learn from and respect someone's opinions in our book group, and at the same time know that she treats her piano as a piece of junk. I just can't handle too many competing mental and emotional demands at once. (Now it might be different if I lived in an area without a lot of good techs -- maybe I'd have to grow a thicker skin.)


Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
#628353 - 06/17/08 02:22 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
eddie twang Offline
Full Member
eddie twang  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
east yorks,england
jerry,dan,roy..l am so pleased l am not alone!..though somtimes l wonder wether it was worth all the hard work!...one of the largest instrument suppliers in the u.k sells tuning equipment in its catalouge.theres no wonder this trade is going to the dogs.

#628354 - 06/17/08 02:32 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Tooner,

You have touched upon a subject that I have had a great deal of experience with. Schools have budget constraints, and a limited supply of funding goes to music, the performing arts, and other types of artistic endeavors.

I spent 12 yrs. of my life trying to make changes to the very same systems that you speak of here, with little results, I got totally emotionally involved with the success or failure of these results, and linked my own personal happiness with each and every event.

This resulted in my own unhappiness, until I realized that if I wanted change to happen I needed to change my response to the situations. So I changed from emotional response, to intellectual responses.

The school systems are too big and cumbersome, it is impossible to make wholesale changes, and the resistance from the union members in those systems, makes it nearly impossible.

So my changed response was to find other work, and dump the schools. And from what I hear now, there is no evidence I was even in the system. Any of the changes I made are now invisible.

You are choosing your happiness, or unhappiness about the piano at the school based on its’ condition? This is your choice to do this. Making this choice will not get the piano fixed. Putting pressure on the music dept. for what reason? Are you of the opinion they do not know the condition of this instrument?

Funding is provided to them by the school board. They are just employees. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

If they do not know the condition of this instrument perhaps you have not reported this to the proper dept. If you are of the opinion that you have reported this to the correct people in charge, and there has been no movement, then you have done your part. There is no more to do, and a decision has been made to either ignore the report or do nothing. School boards are great at doing nothing.

You can tilt all you want at a school that does not care for the piano. Heck you can even bring the thing home and rebuild it for free, and 5yrs. later go and have a look. You will not be able to tell anyone did any work on this piece. How do I know this? Well if the school cared, or had the funds, the instrument would not be in this condition now right?

As far as what you believe, this sentence is based on your own presumption ……………………..

“What we do have is a limited choice over our actions when we experience emotions.”

This might be your experience. It just might not be someone else’s’. Just because you see it this way does not make it so for the rest of us.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
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#628355 - 06/17/08 03:03 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
UprightTooner Offline
500 Post Club Member
UprightTooner  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
North-East US
All:

Thanks for the understanding and input.

Oddly, money in the budget isn’t really the problem. The repairs were supposed to be paid from the District budget, but instead were paid from the Performance / Donation / Slush Fund. The problem is probably the very busy and dedicated staff. One phone call would probably be enough to get the repairs approved and arranged.

My dilemma is whether it is appropriate to do this for the piano’s, not the owner’s sake? Jerry has a good point about education. If they understood what care the piano needs, especially in this case to avoid further damage, then the customer would be making the decision on behalf of the piano and not me. But this community isn’t very rank and file. People tend to just sort of pitch in. I don’t work that way very well. I prefer structured organization.


Part-time tuner
#628356 - 06/17/08 03:19 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Yes Tooner there is one thing I forgot to mention. Schools receive money from three different budget programs. One is the district school board allotment. Second is called the variance budget. Thirdly are the scholarship funds or donated funds. This last one comes directly to the school. The other two are administered.

If you prefer a structured organization then structure it to your liking. Sounds like they are waiting for some guidance on this one. If this dilemma would be solved by one phone call, then it would seem like you have answered your own original question.
cheers........


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#628357 - 06/17/08 03:36 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
UprightTooner Offline
500 Post Club Member
UprightTooner  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
North-East US
Thanks for the advice, Dan. I'm worried about getting sucked into an organizational vacuum.

Dorrie: Good advice. I'm the only tuner within an hour in every direction. That's not very far, but people want someone local. I'll be tuning another piano tommorrow that hasn't been tuned for years, because there was no one local to do it. It's the pianos I can get attached to, not the customers, though. shocked


Part-time tuner
#628358 - 06/17/08 03:53 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
Ron Alexander Offline
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Ron Alexander  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Oh we've hit a nerve now!!!! At least it hits a nerve with me. Ahhh yes, educational systems and their pianos. Seems they can find the necessary budget for the sports programs. They're willing to nickle and dime every Mom and Dad for a contribution for this and that, but are they willing to put resources in their piano!!!! Just about every school I have tuned in, is a hit and miss proposition from year to year. I have gotten to the point, I dont even call them. If they want it tuned, they will call me. And the environment and the abuse they put those poor pianos through. It is best not to get attached to pianos in schools. If you do, be ready for some heart break, or be prepared to donate your time and talents in far too many instances.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
#628359 - 06/17/08 03:56 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
There is a 4th... PTA.. Parent Teacher Associations contribute funds also to piano purchases and piano repairs.

Tooner, just do the work. If the piano needs it, then it is our responsibility to inform the customer that it needs to be done.

It then becomes their responsibility to see to it that the work is done. There is no dilemma here.

You're making a big deal out of nothing.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#628360 - 06/17/08 04:03 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Dennis Kelvie Offline
Full Member
Dennis Kelvie  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Caldwell, Idaho
Hey Jerry,

I got one yesterday. I will replace the keytops (both black and white), do the tuning and pitch raise, do the minor amount of regulation the ugly old piano needs, and HE will refinish the case, replace a bit of missing veneer, attach the castors (which he will buy from me), and the piano will service his 4 kids for years! The piano is "sound" (Pardon the pun) structurally, and the above is all he needs for what he wants.

Where can I go wrong?

Dennis


Dennis C. Kelvie
Piano Tuner/Technician since 1976
#628361 - 06/17/08 07:50 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Great Dennis! What kind of piano is it?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#628362 - 06/17/08 08:12 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
“Where can I go wrong? “

Nowhere as long as you remember that cabinet refinishing is a completely separate career than piano technology. Piano cabinets can be done by any furniture refinisher.

However, I do get some calls from furniture guys ……..”How do I take the pedals out from the bottom?” Or “do you have any of the felt trim for the pedal set??” Or “how do I flip the piano over to change the castors?” so there is a sunny side sometimes (sales of piano tilters from the supply houses) wink


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#628363 - 06/17/08 09:06 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ron Alexander  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
Dan, I agree cabinet refinishing is a whole separate field. I just never have developed much of an interest in refinishing. Glad I know some good furniture refinishers.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
#628364 - 06/18/08 06:27 AM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
UprightTooner Offline
500 Post Club Member
UprightTooner  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
North-East US
Ron:

You are right, the Baldwin R is a heart break situation.


Part-time tuner
#628365 - 06/18/08 01:52 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
eddie twang Offline
Full Member
eddie twang  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
east yorks,england
l learnt how to re polish pianos by working alongside the french polishers.most of the pianos l restore are over a hundred years old and they need re polishing

#628366 - 06/18/08 02:57 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,285
Eternal Offline
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Eternal  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,285
Posts: 80,372
Quote
Originally posted by Rickster:
[QB] where I’m from it is not polite to refer to someone as a fool. In fact, there is only one category of individuals who are said to be fools; “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God” (Psalms 14:1).
This is going to be pretty off-topic, but as an Atheist, I take offense to that statement, even if it's just a quote from Christian mythology smile .

#628367 - 06/18/08 03:21 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
As a Christian all I can say, sorry for your troubles Eternal. As for where this "offense" leaves you as an Atheist......on your own, as usual.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#628368 - 06/18/08 07:34 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Agreed. Emmery.

Why is it, that these types of people seem to think they have more rights than we do? By that, I mean, that Eternal has the right to say that he is offended by that statement. Apparently, this means that we do not have the right to MAKE that statement.

Poppy ****. If you don't like it TOUGH. Rickster has the same freedom of speech as you do.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#628369 - 06/18/08 08:24 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ron Alexander  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,292
North Carolina
It seems to me far too many people are just looking for things to be offended by. I knew a guy in the army who claimed to be an atheist. Funny thing about this guy, it didnt take him along after we arrived in Vietnam, that he began to look Heaven-ward. I would not go as far as to say he became an Evangelical Christian, but our experiences changed his outlook on life, and his view of Eternity, and Who controls it.

Kinda makes me believe the atheistic outlook begins to chance when you stare into the eyes of death, especially on a daily basis.


-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician
#628370 - 06/18/08 08:46 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 787
RoyP Offline
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RoyP  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 787
Cincinnati, Ohio
Do we really want to go down this road? I agree that too many people are offended by all sorts of things.

I have a BS in Philosophy and Religion. smile


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
#628371 - 06/18/08 09:30 PM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,135
Sam Casey Offline
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Sam Casey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,135
SW Missouri
My philosophy and religion are often called BS. smile

Schools. Figure this one out. They buy 100K worth of computers that are outdated when leaving the store and totally obsolete within 24 months, those of which are still working. Yet the computers get climate control, measured humidity, temp, and restricted access.

Spend 500K on a fleet of pianos that if properly cared for will last 30-50 years and put them in rooms that sweat, freeze, bake, boil, fry and let any damn Tom Dick or dog beat them to pieces AND take the cheapest bid for service. It just ain't fair.

#628372 - 06/19/08 06:20 AM Re: fools a plenty!  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
UprightTooner Offline
500 Post Club Member
UprightTooner  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 839
North-East US
Sam:

This reminds me of a particular Winter Studio in a schoolroom with enormous windows that face SW. I was asked how to tell when a piano needs replaced. My answer was that I wouldn't recommend that any piano be kept in that room. They might as well keep that one there instead of buying another and ruining it too. I get called to tune it once or twice a year. They will say that it has "two E's" (at the tenor break).

All:

The problem with religious freedom is that if we ban the mention of religion, then we are promoting Atheism.


Part-time tuner
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