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#627449 - 10/18/06 09:51 PM Seeking to understand Steinways tone  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 78
synthnut Offline
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synthnut  Offline
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MI
Okay, so were only talking the difference in tone between models O/L, A, B, C, D!!! lets forget the short ones. I'm wondering about the differences in tone and preference for tone/models in relation to musical genra's!!! Teks, you know which Steinways work well in certain situations, and which ones dont, please share that info.
Which model/years are the absolute best for jazz, classical or pop? and why?, solo or ensemble? which hammers/wire and voicing technics to use for rebuilding, lets just talk the glory of Steinway tone's, and if you could only have one or two great examples, NAME THEM PLEASE!!! old verses new, model against model, bigger isn't always better, I will never get enough information, but please try!


Retired Prototype Engineer,Auto Ind. Longtime professional piano/multi keyboard player and recording. 35 years tuning/restoring, A deep passion for high end grands and woodworking. Currently have 1921 Steinway B and countless multi keyboards/drums/guitars in my studio
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#2247676 - 03/16/14 09:58 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
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synthnut Offline
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synthnut  Offline
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Posts: 78
MI
Cant believe nobody ever replied to this great post!


Retired Prototype Engineer,Auto Ind. Longtime professional piano/multi keyboard player and recording. 35 years tuning/restoring, A deep passion for high end grands and woodworking. Currently have 1921 Steinway B and countless multi keyboards/drums/guitars in my studio
#2247693 - 03/16/14 10:51 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Sep 2006
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Supply Offline
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Supply  Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by synthnut
Cant believe nobody ever replied to this great post!
We probably all think our own posts are great. Whether others feel the same way is a different question.

#2247700 - 03/16/14 10:56 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 292
PianistOne111 Offline
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Utah
Hahh?

How much did you get paid?

And O/L are not short pianos?

Longer pianos = less inharmonicity = less crappy. That's it. So, D, C, B, A, in that order, are the best for everything.


One111
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#2247727 - 03/17/14 12:31 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
If you knew how much Steinway pianos can vary from one to the other-you would see one small reason no one care to address your question directly.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2247729 - 03/17/14 12:32 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
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beethoven986 Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
If you knew how much Steinway pianos can vary from one to the other-you would see one small reason no one care to address your question directly.


thumb

#2247791 - 03/17/14 07:59 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Oct 2006
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David Jenson Offline
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Maine
Originally Posted by synthnut
... I will never get enough information, but please try!

If you're not going to get enough information, can you think of a reason that busy techs would bother replying?


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2247799 - 03/17/14 08:25 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
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Posts: 397
Jon Page Offline
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Jon Page  Offline
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Posts: 397
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
You have not received a response because there is no answer. Each piano, even through the same model series, right from the factory is different. This is a technical community and as such discusses the technical/mechanical aspects related to tone production and action mechanics; the nuts and bolts of it. What you are looking for is the emotional aspect which is better gleaned from piano devotees with opinions mostly based on preconceived notions and pretense.

Last edited by Jon Page; 03/17/14 10:13 PM.

Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com
#2248067 - 03/17/14 07:32 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: May 2003
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
Originally Posted by synthnut
Okay, so were only talking the difference in tone between models O/L, A, B, C, D!!! I'm wondering about the differences in tone and preference for tone/models in relation to musical genra's!!! Teks, you know which Steinways work well in certain situations, and which ones dont, please share that info.


Greetings,
It depends on the combination. For instance, the tone of an O is strawberry when used for jazz, but when played in a country track, it becomes more wooly. A D, on the other hand, has a concrete and sunfish tone when used for jazz, but a buttermilk and diamond sound when played classically. The A's all share the same problem, and that is acne in the upper registers and fusion in the lower ones, no matter what kind of music you play.
The B is in a class by itself. It's jazz tone is mostly sugarcane with a touch of sky when played softly, and as it is played more and more forcefully, the cane goes to plaster and the sky falls. At the upper volume, you have a combination of nuns and devils trying to herd the chickens into the batter.
hope that helps.

#2248100 - 03/17/14 08:36 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Jun 2010
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PaintedPostDave Offline
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PaintedPostDave  Offline
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Upstate New York
I always am sensitive to people using subjective characteristics. With the technology we have today it is entirely unnecessary. On a quantitative basis, here is a description of the following four measures:

Strawberry ~ spectral centroid ratio >2 for keys 1-32 but <=1 for keys 33-88.

Wooly ~ the cumulative line spectrum map shows 34.5% more power in 2nd to 5th partials.

Concrete and sunfish ~ average inharmonicity coefficient approximately 0.0927e-3.

Buttermilk and diamond ~ the first 12 partials have zero power on keys F4 through D6#.

Using acne to critique the upper registers is completely incorrect and shows a lacking in the fundamentals of facial harmolodics.


Dave Koenig
Yamaha M1A console
1927 Knabe 7' 8" grand
https://sites.google.com/site/analysisofsoundsandvibrations/
#2248106 - 03/17/14 08:48 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
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David Jenson  Offline
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Maine
Wow! I'm learning a whole lot about them Steinway pianos.

Strawberry, huh? Whoda thunkit!


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2248110 - 03/17/14 09:03 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Minnesota Marty  Offline

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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Does anyone know anything about the Steinway rebuilding shop at The Chew? Simon has a laughing killer recipe for whippened strings bean. Octaves above anything else you'll find.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2248126 - 03/17/14 09:54 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,194
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
From one Ed to the other,
Hats off Gentleman, Mr Foote is a genius!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2248594 - 03/18/14 08:50 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 281
adamp88 Offline
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Omaha, NE
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by synthnut
Okay, so were only talking the difference in tone between models O/L, A, B, C, D!!! I'm wondering about the differences in tone and preference for tone/models in relation to musical genra's!!! Teks, you know which Steinways work well in certain situations, and which ones dont, please share that info.


Greetings,
It depends on the combination. For instance, the tone of an O is strawberry when used for jazz, but when played in a country track, it becomes more wooly. A D, on the other hand, has a concrete and sunfish tone when used for jazz, but a buttermilk and diamond sound when played classically. The A's all share the same problem, and that is acne in the upper registers and fusion in the lower ones, no matter what kind of music you play.
The B is in a class by itself. It's jazz tone is mostly sugarcane with a touch of sky when played softly, and as it is played more and more forcefully, the cane goes to plaster and the sky falls. At the upper volume, you have a combination of nuns and devils trying to herd the chickens into the batter.
hope that helps.


I'm pretty upset that you've given up the secrets of Steinway sound so easily. You just know some rube is going to try gooping Clearasil onto a Steinway A's hammers, not knowing the proper ratio of proactiv to acetone needed to really address the problem.

(I join Ed McM in doffing my hat to you! :D)

Last edited by adamp88; 03/18/14 08:51 PM.

Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE
#2248772 - 03/19/14 08:49 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Jon Page Offline
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Jon Page  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Ok, let's give the guy a break. I'll give it a shot.

The tone of any piano is developed with the contribution of many inputs. The resiliency of the hammers is what is most prevalent and the action's geometry/efficiency to drive the system: the scale design and the ability of the sounding board to efficiently deliver a sustained sound which is backed up by the rim structure. Change one of these components and you get a different sound. Some pianos come down the line hitting 100% on execution, some not so close. Ultimately, it's the player's technique which colors the tone. There was a local jazz festival years ago where many piano players gave solo performances on the same piano. Where one guy made the piano sound melodic and etherial, another sounded like concrete and shattering glass. So what's good for what, what's good for who?

On a side note, some players mistake 'technique' to be force where others correctly see it as finesse. Two greats which impressed me, who I have tuned for in performance and listened to, with this finesse were Rudolf Firkušný and Ellis Larkins. There are many others but these two top my list in classical and jazz that have come to this small part of the globe.


Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com
#2248789 - 03/19/14 09:44 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Yes. All of this is well and good.
But what about the S ?
Why is it neglected so?


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2248812 - 03/19/14 10:34 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: bkw58]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Originally Posted by bkw58
Yes. All of this is well and good.
But what about the S ?
Why is it neglected so?

Overpriced and not very good?

The Baldwin-M was always a better piano.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2248816 - 03/19/14 10:42 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Oh, I was just wondering why - with all of the wonderful metaphors above - the little S did earn at least a peanut.


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2249461 - 03/20/14 12:40 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: bkw58]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 23
tannertuner Offline
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tannertuner  Offline
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Posts: 23
Georgia, USA
Franz Mohr's book, "My Life with the Great Pianists" has a chapter that talks about all the factors that go into a piano's tone. Each piano is different, just like every violin is different and you just have to be able to understand how to take that individual piano where it needs to go, and know when you're trying to do the wrong thing.

As far as the Steinway S, I've worked with a lot of them over the years. The scale is a little squirrely, but for its size, I've always really liked them. But you have to have a feel for what kind of tone you can achieve with each different one.

Rarely see a Baldwin M.

Ed, you're a genius!


Jeff Tanner
Piano Tuner-Technician; 30 years
Tanner Piano
http://www.tannertuner.com
#2249943 - 03/21/14 12:18 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: tannertuner]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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canada
The elephant in the room is that we've grown up with "the steinway sound" via recordings and concerts. As a result, the public mind, the public ear, says "this is what a beautiful piano is supposed to sound like."

#2249950 - 03/21/14 12:33 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
The elephant in the room is that we've grown up with "the steinway sound" via recordings and concerts. As a result, the public mind, the public ear, says "this is what a beautiful piano is supposed to sound like."

Absolutely - It is the proper order of the universe.
(See; Orchestral Voicing)

wink


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2250053 - 03/21/14 04:37 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Nov 2004
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mupianotech Offline
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Huntington WV
Ed Foote is one of my hero's. I read everything he cares to put into print. One of the brightest minds in our profession IMHO, and I've been in this business for 50 years.

But this..... priceless.

Ed, a Steinway owner just the other day asked me a similar question re Steinway tone.

Can I please quote you .


Paul E. Dempsey, RPT
Piano Technician Senior, Emeritus
Marshall University
Huntington, WV
#2250187 - 03/21/14 09:43 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: mupianotech]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,676
Ed Foote Offline
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Ed Foote  Offline
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Tennessee
Originally Posted by mupianotech


But this..... priceless.

Ed, a Steinway owner just the other day asked me a similar question re Steinway tone.

Can I please quote you .


Sure. If you understand the liability issues of quoting me, help yourself. Sometimes getting quoted turns into getting blamed, but I think a good quote can take a lot of editing and still deliver the goods. Makes'em easy to steal and to enjoy cheap credit for mots more witty than one might naturally be. At least, that is what I do!

If all the windows are already broken, and there is that stone just laying there...

#2250352 - 03/22/14 07:45 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
LIked your flowerish descriptions, they gave me a little inside on the NY instruments. The German ones being somewhat different the descriptions did not really apply well for them even if some similitudes may be noted (or it is due to translation)

Nice writing anyway wink


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2250711 - 03/22/14 09:48 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Apr 2010
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kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by synthnut
Okay, so were only talking the difference in tone between models O/L, A, B, C, D!!! I'm wondering about the differences in tone and preference for tone/models in relation to musical genra's!!! Teks, you know which Steinways work well in certain situations, and which ones dont, please share that info.


Greetings,
It depends on the combination. For instance, the tone of an O is strawberry when used for jazz, but when played in a country track, it becomes more wooly. A D, on the other hand, has a concrete and sunfish tone when used for jazz, but a buttermilk and diamond sound when played classically. The A's all share the same problem, and that is acne in the upper registers and fusion in the lower ones, no matter what kind of music you play.
The B is in a class by itself. It's jazz tone is mostly sugarcane with a touch of sky when played softly, and as it is played more and more forcefully, the cane goes to plaster and the sky falls. At the upper volume, you have a combination of nuns and devils trying to herd the chickens into the batter.
hope that helps.


Love it!


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2252133 - 03/25/14 11:09 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 78
synthnut Offline
Full Member
synthnut  Offline
Full Member

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Posts: 78
MI
Well, just got to read all of this at my expense, gotta admit I was laughing my ass off, priceless, this is what you get for demanding a response!
The original post emanated from the fact that jazz players love the "B" sound,,,guess I was hoping for more info along those lines, however, this is great, I really needed the laugh today! Thanks all.


Retired Prototype Engineer,Auto Ind. Longtime professional piano/multi keyboard player and recording. 35 years tuning/restoring, A deep passion for high end grands and woodworking. Currently have 1921 Steinway B and countless multi keyboards/drums/guitars in my studio
#2252177 - 03/26/14 01:13 AM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 904
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014
phacke  Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 904
CO, USA
I think Mr. Foote's description of the B was quite positive…

"The B is in a class by itself. It's jazz tone is mostly sugarcane with a touch of sky when played softly, and as it is played more and more forcefully, the cane goes to plaster and the sky falls. At the upper volume, you have a combination of nuns and devils trying to herd the chickens into the batter."

I'll gladly take that.

Regards-


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)
#2252755 - 03/26/14 10:41 PM Re: Seeking to understand Steinways tone [Re: synthnut]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
bill32 Offline
Junior Member
bill32  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
el paso, texas
as a technician the Steinway tone doesn't matter. what the customer wants is what counts. they have to live with it.


Piano Tech
El Paso, Texas
tuneit@swbell.net

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